Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Solely UK citizens post Brexit ...

146 replies

LurkingHusband · 17/10/2016 16:10

Is it possible that post-Brexit, people who only hold UK citizenship could be at a disadvantage when compared to people who hold UK and a.n.other EU citizenship ?

I'm vaguely considering a post-Brexit where visas or work permits are required for UK citizens to work in the EU, meaning employers (in particular US or Asian) would prefer a dual-national over a pure UK one.

Looking forward to a robust discussion Grin

Chatting with some colleagues, they all felt it would be a situation which simply cannot develop. But at the same time, they also conceded it may be out of the UK control. (Which rather sours the whole "taking back control" mantra).

OP posts:
Motheroffourdragons · 04/11/2016 13:59

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

CoteDAzur · 04/11/2016 14:03

I could give examples but what's the point? You won't understand until you are go to a language school and see for yourself how you learn through imitating your teacher.

Anyway, I think it's best to stop derailing the thread now. If anyone is interested in starting another thread on this topic, I would be happy to contribute to it.

CoteDAzur · 04/11/2016 14:04

you are go to

Peregrane · 04/11/2016 14:24

"So, post Brexit, we could be faced with the situation where some UK citizens - who hold an EU citizenship - might actually be employed over someone who doesn't ?

I wonder how that would go down, if it happened ?"

How would it go down with whom? Presumably it would go down the same way that Aussies who also hold an EU passport are currently preferred in France, Germany or Sweden over Aussies who don't. Except that Aussies didn't have a right to be employed in France, Germany or Sweden in the first place that they then chose to throw away.

Or do you mean UK companies discriminating in favour of dual nationals on home soil? Again, hardly surprising if those who deal intensively with continental businesses would prefer employees with the right to move freely in the EU. And if selection along these grounds were somehow deemed to be legally problematic, that's an incentive for those companies to reconsider how much exposure they keep in the UK. I imagine this would be less of a concern for employers that are not involved in travel for work-related purposes.

Motheroffourdragons · 04/11/2016 14:26

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

LurkingHusband · 04/11/2016 14:28

Brit Cits are going to need extra skills to stand out from the rest of the world when applying for international jobs - just being fluent in English won't be sufficient, we need to become bilingual / acquire sought after technical skills / pursue higher education etc etc.

The problem is even Brit Cits who are bilingual (i.e. the very few) could be disadvantaged when up against a bilingual EU citizen.

It's worth bearing in mind something Gore Vidal once slapped Michael Parkinson down with, in the 1980s. Ol' Parky was trying to big up the UKs imnportance to Japan to not-much-interest from Gore Vidal. After extolling the Royal Family and heritage, Gore Vidal quoted someone (wish I could remember who) and said:

The only thing we need from England is her language. And we've already got that

One suspects the late Mr. Vidal would have had a field day with Brexit.

OP posts:
OlennasWimple · 04/11/2016 14:37

Sorry, Lurking, I wasn't very clear - by "rest of the world", I meant non-British and non-EU people.

ARumWithAView · 04/11/2016 15:31

You are a native speaker, so please don't presume to know what is or isn't an issue for someone who speaks English as a second or third language.

I'm a native speaker, and I've taught English in Japan, Germany, England and the US. I'm discussing this from the experience of teaching thousands of students, of multiple nationalities, in private tuition and commercial language schools.

I've had hundreds of conversations with students who want to tell/ask me which kind of English accent is 'best' or 'correct' which is actually a fair enough question, if you're investing time and money in learning a language, but it leads nowhere with English. Ideas about the 'best' accent range from archaic RP British English ('the Queen's English is best, because England is the home of English and the Queen is the highest rank of English person') to strange, everywhere-and-nowhere blends of American accent (a Texan drawl with Boston Rs and Californian vowels best because America is the 'business and media centre of the modern world').

If English was spoken in just one country, you could identify the accent of the richest/highest in social status/most educated and make a case for that being the 'best'. (You'd have to be a raging snob, but you're paying for the English lessons, so that's your prerogative.)

But with such a widely-spoken language, which has entirely legitimate dialects in multiple nations, plus infinite regional accents within those -- any conversation about the 'best' English is meaningless, and usually descends into unpleasant, silly claims about the importance of good breeding, economic clout and 'I'll see you the American film industry and raise you SHAKESPEARE' and other finer points of cultural prestige. I've had this conversation a lot, and it gets both ludicrous and offensive, especially if students think that, because I'm English, I'll agree when they say that they would hate to have an Australian or Irish teacher, because that's a lazy/incorrect/inferior brand of English.

And I'm not saying all this to make some right-on point about equality, either, at the expense of my students' outcomes. IME, the students who continue insisting that regional accents or particular dialects of English are of lower rank than others, and want to sequester their own learning from its pollutions, are also a) most likely to be frustrated by spontaneous interactions with native speakers of any nation ('he was not speaking proper English!'), b) slowest to progress with speaking and comprehension in a group setting (no point talking to other students: their English is poor), c) able to comprehend a carefully enunciated, formalised language track, but completely at sea when trying to enjoy English language movies or TV shows, and d) overall less effective communicators, whatever their official level, even if they are confident at reading aloud and have excellent written English. It's just not a helpful mindset.

You won't understand until you are go to a language school and see for yourself how you learn through imitating your teacher.

This is not how anyone learns to speak a language. Your teacher isn't programming words and pronunciations into your brain. It's an interaction, and you are influenced from multiple sources. (Unless, as before: North Korea.)

CoteDAzur · 04/11/2016 16:47

Thank you for the lecture, ARum Hmm

Imitation is how people learn a language, from a baby learning his native language to the adult working on his fourth.

And it's not about aspiring to "the best" accent but about not wishing to have a (completely unnecessary) strong one.

"the accent of the richest/highest in social status/most educated and make a case for that being the 'best'. (You'd have to be a raging snob"

This is already happening, with EU parents importing nannies with "proper British" accents to take care of their babies/children.

There is absolutely no use calling them "raging snobs". Until you English people stop judging each other on your accents, others will of course want their children to speak in a way that won't cause them problems in the future.

This is of course not what I was talking about re Irish accent, but I guess you really wanted to give that lecture.

Motheroffourdragons · 04/11/2016 17:22

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Cloeycat · 04/11/2016 17:29

I feel like I started this massive derail- really sorry OP Sad

Motheroffourdragons · 04/11/2016 17:30

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

CoteDAzur · 04/11/2016 17:32

I have been trying to end this derail but then felt I had to respond to the long lecture I got from ARum, where she called parents who care about the accent acquired by their children on the course of learning a new language "raging snobs".

That is what I would call offensive. What is it that you find offensive in the (entirely and objectively correct) sentence that you quoted?

Motheroffourdragons · 04/11/2016 17:44

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

CoteDAzur · 04/11/2016 18:03

I don't think all UK residents (or even citizens/subjects) are English.

And people are often judged for their accents, especially in the UK, to a degree unseen in France or the US. This is fact. I don't know how it can be offensive. It wasn't what I meant re Irish teacher, as I said before but it was what ARum said in her lecture, so I answered it.

ARumWithAView · 04/11/2016 18:10

You got the 'lecture', Cote, because you made a snobbish, prejudiced statement...

No offense, but Irish accent isn't a desirable trait for an English language teacher in Wurope.

I would not accept an English teacher with a strong regional accent for my DC and am very glad that my teachers did not have strong accents, either.

... and then weren't able to justify it at all, except by saying the rest of us didn't know what we were talking about because we're native speakers who don't understand how language schools work.

It is prejudiced to state that you wouldn't accept someone with an Irish accent as your language teacher, unless you can make a clear case that Irish-accented English is simply not fit for purpose. What issues do you envisage? That one Irish English teacher will transmit to you an accent so pervasive, distinctive and inalterable that you will not be able to communicate with other English speakers? That you're getting a poor, second-rate version of English? That somewhere there's a purebred variant of English (which? you can't even explain which accents are acceptable) and that Irish English is inferior to this?

And it's not about aspiring to "the best" accent but about not wishing to have a (completely unnecessary) strong one.

Again, you'll have to state which form of 'accent-free' English you're aiming for. In the US, I have an accent so strong it's the first thing most people comment on. In London, my accent is unremarkable. In the south-west, it's a bit posh. Do I have a strong accent?

This is already happening, with EU parents importing nannies with "proper British" accents to take care of their babies/children. There is absolutely no use calling them "raging snobs".

They are raging snobs. And I think you must mean English nannies heaven forfend one ends up with a Welsh accent from the south-east. Or is a Liverpudlian accent okay? The sad thing is, effectively trying to buy in to the English class system by procuring your kids caregivers or teachers with the 'proper' accents is often counter-productive, since one thing a well-established class system rejects (at every level) is pretenders. Still: it's a lucrative industry, so fair play to anyone who wants to ham up their I Am A Genteel English Governess angle abroad.

Until you English people stop judging each other on your accents, others will of course want their children to speak in a way that won't cause them problems in the future.

Thank you for explaining how 'you English people' treat accents. Can you explain how I, an English person, react to someone with an Irish accent? What terrible problems might it cause them in the future? Might I exclude them from employment for which they are entirely qualified, based solely on my own prejudices?

Motheroffourdragons · 04/11/2016 18:15

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

OlennasWimple · 04/11/2016 18:19

I learnt German with a rural Austrian accent, because that is apparently what my teacher had. I didn't know this until I was laughed at in a shop in Berlin (having plucked up the courage to try out my language skills, despite the assistant speaking reasonable English herself) for sounding like "someone stupid from the country"

OlennasWimple · 04/11/2016 18:21

I have a fairly neutral English accent, reasonably well spoken with a few regional inflections on certain words, probably similar to ARum. But in the US people who speak English as a second language often really struggle to understand me, to the extent that when I tried to volunteer to help TEFL at the local library I was politely turned away because they needed people with an American accent to help

fakenamefornow · 04/11/2016 18:23

If I could go back and give birth to my children again Grin I go and stay in NI and have them there. We'd still be entitled to free NHS treatment and also by being born on the Island of Ireland they could have Irish citizenship. They are now 11, 9 and 8 so who would have predicted this back then.

ARumWithAView · 04/11/2016 18:24

ARum - there's no point, even when you point out what Cote has said, she doesn't see it.

I know... but I doubt very much that she'd be oblivious enough to advertise for 'English teacher wanted (Please: no Irish)', so I don't see why that no offence, but crap should go by without comment here. Sorry for the derail!

So that's one upside of Brexit: if European families want their nice, proper, real English teachers and nannies, they'll have to pay import duty.

3amEternal · 04/11/2016 18:38

I think most remainders wouldn't give a toss about any of this. For many in this country there is as much chance of them going to the moon as working or moving overseas. Many won't ever leave their home town .

CoteDAzur · 04/11/2016 19:15

"I have a fairly neutral English accent, reasonably well spoken with a few regional inflections on certain words... But in the US people who speak English as a second language often really struggle to understand me"

This was what I meant when I said "it's not about aspiring to "the best" accent but about not wishing to have a (completely unnecessary) strong one" but it got hijacked to mean "raging snobbery".

You would want to learn a language with a neutral (no) accent. Call that whatever you want, but that is how it is.

CoteDAzur · 04/11/2016 19:23

"the difference between a South of France accent, a Parisian one and a French Canadian one"

There isn't that much difference between a Parisian and a SoF accent, actually. You can't have had any trouble understanding either of them.

You wouldn't want to learn French with a strong Marseille accent, though. And you definitely wouldn't want to talk like a character in Bienvenue Chez les Ch'tis.

FreeButtonBee · 04/11/2016 19:33

Well the yanks love an Irish accent 😉 Working in a banking environment I hear so many different accented versions of English. European (their origins tend to be quite obvious) /Asian (tend to retain very strong accents IME even when they are bilingual/extremely fluent) and middle eastern (tend to be more transatlantic) and plenty of American accents. All in the same room and we all rub along okay.