Solely UK citizens post Brexit ...

[LurkingHusband]

Is it possible that post-Brexit, people who only hold UK citizenship could be at a disadvantage when compared to people who hold UK and a.n.other EU citizenship ?

I'm vaguely considering a post-Brexit where visas or work permits are required for UK citizens to work in the EU, meaning employers (in particular US or Asian) would prefer a dual-national over a pure UK one.

Looking forward to a robust discussion

Chatting with some colleagues, they all felt it would be a situation which simply cannot develop. But at the same time, they also conceded it may be out of the UK control. (Which rather sours the whole "taking back control" mantra).

Job advert in my inbox this morning, for graduates and post-grads looking to work in manufacturing. "International mobility" essential, must be able to rotate around european sites ...

Would really love to know what leavers think about this. This makes me even more pissed off. Neither I or my children have dual citizenship, or can apply for any. So my children will be disadvantaged, when their EU citizenship rights are removed against mine and their wishes. What was that someone said about 'getting our sovereignty back'. What the fuck will it be worth on paper when they get overlooked for opportunities that people who aren't even born here can get instead? Just the fuck why?!

Indeed, Mistigri. I foresee a bright future for young people with desirable skills, perfect English and a couple of other languages... and an EU passport.

I also feel incredibly sorry for EU families who have settled in the U.K. and whose DC don't master their language/culture of nationality.

Could this be a ray of hope?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-citizenship-freedom-of-movement-passport-how-to-keep-parliament-live-move-abroad-a7405196.html

I can't decide if it's a spoof article or not because of the quotes from Leavers though.

I wouldn't take it seriously, fakename. EU citizenship derives from citizenship of one of the member states of the EU. The MEP in question can propose what he wants, but since what he's proposing doesn't have a base in the Treaties that underpin the EU, I don't see it going very far.

An EFTA style agreement (which includes free movement) would mean the right for UK citizens to live and work in other EEA countries, without the need for EU citizenship. But at the moment that's politically unacceptable for May's government, who want to get rid of free movement.

It will be a mirror (exactly the same as it is now, by the way).

Whatever barriers the UK puts up to FOM, the UK will see returned in kind. It's impossible to see the EU27 having it any other way.

And the UK will have to do all the running - all the EU has to do is match whatever the UK dreams up decides on.

So if the UK says EU citizens need a visa - so will UK citizens in the EU.

Work permit before you enter the UK ? Same for EU.

Only certain jobs allowed to be done by EU citizens ? Same in EU for UK.

and so on.

Yes, it will be a pissing contest. But one the UK started.

It's probably the most powerful lever in the negotiating toolbox - only the UK is in the jaws, not pulling on the handle.

The core question is politically how much are leavers going to be prepared to suffer ?

If we start with a blank slate, then it's easy to see the UK deciding you need to pay for a visa (so some going to EU) ... maybe a per-visit admin fee ????

Remember there will be a cost involved in operating a visa scheme. Somebody has to look at all applications and weed out "the bad guys" (remember this was one of Leaves biggest gripes). And I struggle to see any future government being able to defend a visa scheme which costs money - so the visa scheme will need to be self funding.

(Again, the mirror view suggests that the EU scheme would need to be self funding. I can't see EU citizens being thrilled at subsidising UK citizens).

Have no idea what criteria would be applied to weed out "bad guys".

Then we'll need a whole mechanism - IT systems and personnel - to police the visa scheme, and arrest and deport overstayers and people who abuse the visa (e.g. work when they shouldn't).

Given the UKBA is overwhelmed as we speak, it'll be interesting to see how they cope with all the additional work

And finally the elephant in the room - the question I posed at the head of the thread. How will leavers sell the loss of prospects UK citizens are already facing ? Which is not a hypothetical now - there are a few discussions in technical areas where people have been asked if they have a non-UK EU citizenship in interviews ... which is sensible for jobs on projects that are spanning 3,4 years.

Of course, we could leave FOM exactly as it is. But it rather makes a mockery of all the pre-referendum rhetoric about "securing our borders". It's possible a post-Brexit move might be to tighten up non-EU immigration. But that doesn't square with what Theresa May was promising India yesterday (and by the way, chatting with my offshore colleagues, the view from the streets in India, is no one believes a word she says). It also didn't need Brexit to happen - the UK has always been in full control of non-EU immigration.

I did have a crazy idea (possibly the wine ) that the EU might create a stateless "EU citizenship" which UK citizens could "buy" and which would grant them - individually - FOM into the EU. This would be offered on the basis that the UK was required to allow similar "stateless EU nationals" FOM into the UK. This would be allied with a initiative to allow other EU citizens to surrender their national citizenship, and become "pure EU" citizens. But then I sort of stopped there. Although it does have a resonance in chatter from various EU countries (France and Italy) where some of the more liberal voices are expressing disquiet with their own nationality - especially where far-right extremism is extant.

It is a nice pipe dream though. 16 million Remainers paying £x,000 to Brussels (so less to spend in the UK) to keep an EU passport.

A serious question, for anyone who voted leave and is happy with the way things are going (probably a very small intersection) :

What would you be prepared to put up with reciprocally with the EU in terms of border costs/controls/visas/work permits (if we start from an assumption they're happening) ?

I think most leavers do not care. I think the majority of leave voters are not those who work in International environments and aspire to live, study and work abroad for themselves or their children.

Indeed, Mistigri. I foresee a bright future for young people with desirable skills, perfect English and a couple of other languages... and an EU passport.

This is of course good news for the "liberal elite" like me, with my bi- and trilingual kids with dual nationality.

Not so good for the kids from less fortunate backgrounds.

I think most leavers do not care. I think the majority of leave voters are not those who work in International environments and aspire to live, study and work abroad for themselves or their children.

It's not just live, study and work. It's visit.

£20 for a 1-year visa, plus £20 per entry to EU ? All of a sudden that family holiday to Majorca for 4 is at least £160 more expensive. Probably more, as it will be priced in Euros ....

It may not happen, of course. But the only way it won't happen is if the UK doesn't do it either.

Yes they didn't think about the yearly all inclusive to Tenerife when they voted. I am non British - probably also the dreaded liberal elite - with dual nationals children so will still be able to travel. My British DH can stay home and water the plants

more vague speculation is that even with a symmetrical agreement (and I really can't see any politically acceptable alternative) there is much room for asymmetry to develop ... with so many companies being spread geographically, an EU based company that's tendering could insist on all tenders being presented in their Brussels, or Paris, or Milan, or Barcelona, or Frankfurt offices.

No cost for an EU-based company. But by the time the sales team have bought their visas and work permits, it could add £1,000 to the cost of an EU pitch. Of course that's £1,000 that won't be going to the shop floor workers.

Unless the UK company can send an EU citizen to do the pitch ?

The whole thing is fucked seven ways sideways whichever way you look at it.

And how would sales teams that need to travel to Europe regularly to manage their European customers cope if visas become a requirement?

It could get really messy.

And how would sales teams that need to travel to Europe regularly to manage their European customers cope if visas become a requirement?

EU answer: not our problem.

This is of course good news for the "liberal elite" like me, with my bi- and trilingual kids with dual nationality. Not so good for the kids from less fortunate backgrounds. Same here, my children have dual nationality and are bilingual and learning a third language at school. We are metropolitan, liberal and cosmopolitan, but "elite" we are certainly not (at least in the traditional definition of the term, which seems to have been redefined recently).

I also wonder how Leavers will feel once it becomes apparent that dual passport job applicants are preferred, will they think it is unfair and complain, or take it on the chin as a sacrifice for "taking their country back"?

I also wonder how Leavers will feel once it becomes apparent that dual passport job applicants are preferred, will they think it is unfair and complain, or take it on the chin as a sacrifice for "taking their country back"?

Personally, I can't see that being allowed to happen - it would be incendiary. I also believe this is something that's already been envisaged in the EU, and is being kept in the "dry" box . Whatever Brexit turns out to be, I would gamble FOM will continue unchanged. There might be some dicking about for show. But the core principle - of freedom to move within countries, to work, and to settle - will remain.

If dual national citizens were to have an advantage, it would start a nastier backlash. And having been subject to "mild" racism on account of my surname in the 1970s, I would nervous of imagining it being "nastier".

This is already happening to some extent. I manage and recruit for a team in an international team in the banking sector here in London. I mostly prefer foreigners and British people with no experience studying or working abroad need to work hard to convince me in an interview. I can choose the people I want so if I wanted people with dual nationalities that is what I would get. Obviously wouldn't be company policy in writing.

the EU might create a stateless "EU citizenship" which UK citizens

I've been having that very same dream. After all, during the Scottish referendum it was said that if independence won, Scottish residents could then choose between a British or Scottish passport (or have both). If I could choose between a British or EU passport for myself and my children I would happily (well, sadly but willingly) choose EU. I think if this option did materialise then a few years down the line people like me would be the first ones to be hanged as traitors by the baying mob who are planning on marching on the law courts.

Ich bin ein Berliner

which JFK deliberately connected to

Civis Romanus sum

The idea that the Roman citizen was free to go anywhere in the Roman world, and still be a Roman.

Ich bin ein Europaer ?

" Personally, I can't see that being allowed to happen - it would be incendiary."

Actually this is already happening. My DH is eyeing up a few select US-interational companies with a heavy presence in the UK, EU and Asia. The roles are at senior level and they look for people who know the UK market (in this sector), speak business level English and have passports that allow them to travel in the EU. I suppose at the moment these person specifications preclude applicants who are on a working visa in the UK (from Asia for example) but in the future it might mean EU citizens who have extensive work experience in the UK, speak English fluently and hold EU or better still British and EU passports will be more desirable to some the companies as some roles require extensive travel. It makes business sense.

Thinking about the long-term, if the UK really makes itself insular and inward looking and pupils don't learn foreign languages from an early and develop an open minded attitude to people from a range of cultural backgrounds, participate in exchange programmes or Erasmus etc. in 10 or 20 years British workers will not be able to easily compete in the international market because you need to have a certain mindset of curiosity about what's different, tolerance of people doing things in culturally 'weird and wonderful;' ways.

... to work in teams with international people..

LH: it's happening. My employer asks for mobility within Europe, plus minimum European B2 level in a major European language for its european graduate scheme. A low bar for many continental European graduates (for eg most French business or engineering students continue at least one MFL, and often two, right up to masters level), an increasingly high one for british applicants. Add mobility into the mix ...

Charles Goerens is the liberal member of the EU Parliament (previous roles include Minster for Foreign affairs and for Cooperation,Humanitarian action and defence).

He has realised how divide we are, and supports the 48% who wanted to remain part of the EU. He has proposed an amendment to the relevant Treaties that may enable those British citizens who want it, some of the same rights they had as EU citizens, including :

🔹the right of residence

🔹 to travel freely in the EU

🔹to be able to vote in European elections and

🔹be represented by an MEP.

He is an experienced parliamentarian and must think this is feasible. It is worth googling him asap and following him on Twitter and liking his page on Facebook? His proposals are due for debate in about three days time!

I know that the 48% would prefer full citizenship, but for Remainers this is better than nothing, and surely following him sends a message from the otherwise forgotten 48%.