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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 16:42

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

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RedToothBrush · 13/10/2016 23:20

Yes, Spectator normally Conservative though the author of that article was Nick Cohen I believe is perhaps more left leaning than most though. He writes for the Observer and formerly was at the New Statesman. Wrote 'Whats left?' though which is critical of current liberal thinking.

Re: Scottish Ref. It doesn't necessarily matter that the SP can't authorise a ref (I was aware it had to be authorised by the Government). They can still pass a bill. If that passes and they push for a ref, it puts May in a difficult position if she is seen to block it. If that happens there is still a case that the Union is being compromised by stopping the will of Scotland. If she authorises it, it obviously there is a huge risk there. (May effectively can't authorise it hence my belief that there will not be an Indy Ref 2.) The point is to put May into this impossible position if she doesn't listen to Scotland. That is the beauty of it for Sturgeon too.

Tonights By-Elections

Windermere, Cumbria
LDem

Windermere Bowness North, South Lakeland
LDem

(Both in Tim Farron Land)

Swanley, Kent
CON

Swanley Christchurch & Village, Sevenoaks
CON
(Area which is working class but Conservative. Good showings by Lab and UKIP. If May's policies are working, then you would expect an increase for the Cons here at the expense of Lab/Ukip)

Westgate, Lancaster
LAB

Brockley, Lewisham
LAB

Evelyn, Lewisham
LAB

Cliff Villages, North Kesteven, Lincs
LINCS IND

Broadstone, Poole
CON
(Think this is the one to watch. Would not be surprised by a good LD showing here)

Limspfield, Tandridge (Surrey)
CON
(True blue area with a very good Con candidate. If there is a noticeable change here then its significant)

www.ft.com/content/736e0552-9139-11e6-a72e-b428cb934b78
Brexit Briefing: The case for a green paper

May’s timetable for triggering Article 50 confronts a problem — parliamentary intervention

Article says that her timetable is under pressure and the case for a green paper is down to the lack of information she has given and the fact so much is leaking from Whitehall.

www.ft.com/content/63b55cf2-9137-11e6-8df8-d3778b55a923
Theresa May should publish a clear blueprint for Brexit

The FT had a second article on almost the same issue, calling for a plan, as without one there can not be any meaningful debate and there is the question of her mandate. It would also keep her ministers on the same page.

The funny thing is May is actually doing a similar thing to Corbyn in this respect: Neither are sharing with the rest of the part or even their Cabinet what they are doing. The announcement of a50 timing was not even discussed with the Cabinet - it was done with a couple of close advisors, much like Corbyn only discussed things with his little crew of supporters.

Guy Verhofstadt Facebook
Very sad to see such a large increase in hate crimes in the UK following a vicious, divisive and xenophobic Brexit campaign. The EU is watching with great concern, as this will have a terrible impact on the lives of many EU citizens who have chosen to live and work in the UK. Fundamental rights must be respected. I hope we can debate this urgent issue in the European Parliament in the near future.

Matthew Holehouse ‏@mattholehouse
Striking new line in Downing St's boilerplate readout of EU bilats: praise for EU citizens in UK. Follows 'foreign lists' backlash.

The PM took the opportunity to praise the contribution that the many Spanish citizens living in the UK make to our country. She made clear that she wants and expects to be able to protect the status of all EU nationals living in the UK and that the only circumstance in which that wouldn't be possible would be if British citizens' rights in European member states were not protected in return.

Alex Andreou ‏@sturdyAlex
A point about #Brexit, speaking from painful experience. You might like to take it into account.

Let me explain something about EU politics from my experience of covering the Greek crisis in the last few years.:

The deal with the UK will be struck after midnight on the penultimate day of the two-year Article 50 notice period. It will come to the House of Commons for approval on the last day.

Saying "you can debate it then" or "you can vote it down at that point" with a gun to Parliament's head, the seconds ticking away, most likely a general election months away, and the prospect of simply a void when membership expires, is an absoluetely whopping NONSENSE.

It is only at the stage where the general direction is set, before Article 50 is invoked and the clock starts ticking, that MPs can have meaningful input

What did Tusk say today? This is going to get a LOT LOT more stressful.
I wish I had not read that, but at least I can mentally prepare for it...

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RedToothBrush · 13/10/2016 23:23

I apologise that post was supposed to go up a while ago.

Some of those results are already in:

Limpsfield (Tandridge) result:
OLRG: 57.4% (+57.4)
CON: 38.0% (-40.5)
LDEM: 2.7% (-11.0)
LAB: 2.0% (-5.8)
Oxted and Limpsfield Residents Group GAIN Limpsfield (Tandridge) from Conservative.

Cliff Villages (North Kesteven) result:
LIND: 63.1% (-1.0)
CON: 32.6% (-3.3)
LDEM: 4.3% (+4.3)
Lincolnshire Independent HOLD Cliff Villages

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CeciledeVolanges · 13/10/2016 23:33

Red sorry to be really lazy and not include a link, but the debate was in the Commons on 6 September and was called "Claim of Right for Scotland"

SwedishEdith · 13/10/2016 23:34

That Tanridge one is a local issue thing, by the look of it.

RedToothBrush · 13/10/2016 23:51

Brockley (Lewisham) result:
LAB: 48.0% (+8.1)
GRN: 25.4% (-3.6)
LDEM: 10.4% (+5.0)
CON: 7.9% (+0.3)
WEP: 7.0% (+7.0)
UKIP: 1.3% (-3.7)

WEP: Women's Equality Party
LAB HOLD

Thanks CeciledeVolanges, that's enough for me. Will have a look tomorrow.

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Valentine2 · 13/10/2016 23:55

I have been lurking here and been trying to make plans for Oz/Canada etc and didn't comment because didn't feel I had much energy left to do it.
Salutes to giants like you OP and all great posters on Remain side. is there a chance I could get to know any of you in real life please I have learnt so much here and keep learning everyday. Love you wise lot. Xxxx

RedToothBrush · 14/10/2016 00:00

Evelyn (Lewisham) result:
LAB: 53.4% (-)
PBP: 16.3% (-1.7)
CON: 9.5% (+9.5)
IND: 9.0% (+9.0)
GRN: 6.2% (-8.9)
LDEM: 5.6% (-3.4)

PBP: People Before Profit.

LAB hold

Windermere (Cumbria) result:
LDEM: 52.3% (+0.7)
CON: 40.7% (+1.3)
LAB: 4.6% (+4.6)
GRN: 2.4% (-0.6)

Ldem hold

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RedToothBrush · 14/10/2016 00:06

Mary Riddell ‏@MaryRiddell
It's becoming increasingly clear that May won't be able to secure Soft Brexit in Europe or sell Hard Brexit at home. A grim outlook

With ref to Tusk comments today:
Mark Urban ‏@MarkUrban01
This feeds my suspicion that there are key people in Brussels (and Berlin) that still believe the UK might take #Brexit off the table

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RedToothBrush · 14/10/2016 00:13

Windermere Bowness North (South Lakeland) result:
LDEM: 60.1% (+11.1)
CON: 34.9% (-4.1)
GRN: 5.0% (-0.9)

LDem hold

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Valentine2 · 14/10/2016 00:14

red
I wrote here on many threads right after May chose her cabinet that it's really beginning to look like she is going to find a way out of this mess by putting the blame on brexiteers appointed in her cabinet. I don't think I trusted her and neither am I applauding this. but I still believe this was not a wrong guess.
To be fair, I really want to understand the actual plan behind this mess. I don't think there wasn't a bigger plan. I think there is something in the background that I can't understand yet. Please don't label me a conspiracy theorist. I have this gut feeling. £ has tanked. We will pay the price for sure.someone did get the benefit out of it all. Who?

SwedishEdith · 14/10/2016 00:22

Must admit, I agreed with Mark Urban's initial response to Tusk's tweet.

mathanxiety · 14/10/2016 03:33

Striking new line in Downing St's boilerplate readout of EU bilats: praise for EU citizens in UK. Follows 'foreign lists' backlash.

And the net result of so many U-turns is that nobody in Europe has any confidence whatsoever in anything this government says. More to the point, nobody considering investment in the UK has any idea where this government stands on any issue either.

The longer TM caries on doing whatever it is that she and her erstwhile opponents do behind closed doors and continue to thumb their nose at MPS asking questions in Parliament, the worse both situations become.

WifeofDarth · 14/10/2016 08:07

Red I've been reading all your threads, they've made me feel a bit less lonely in my despair at what is happening. I have been on marches, written to my MP (still waiting for a response on my post ConKip conference letter to my cabinet minister MP), and this is my daily information 'fix'.
Thank you.

RebeccaNoodles · 14/10/2016 08:13

'I really want to understand the actual plan behind this mess'

Wouldn't we all.
I don't think there is one, beyond 'stay in power, increase majority'. Hence going for the UKIP vote?

Thanks for this great thread Smile

Peregrina · 14/10/2016 08:26

You've got it in one, Rebecca.

CeciledeVolanges · 14/10/2016 08:33

Valentine I think if you look at the Conservative party conference you will get the idea of who is benefitting. Just look at the PM's face. Read the Guardian articles about the mood there. I think either they are deluded or just enjoying being on top or both. Maybe they are all scared witless and putting on a show. But they are at the tops of their careers. Maybe also find an interview with Nick Gleeson to read - he brought down Barings with a series of bad decisions that he was just too scared ever to tell anyone he was making. The desire not to lose face is a powerful one.

Peregrina · 14/10/2016 08:34

I've been watching the by-election results with interest. Is it normal to have this many by-elections, and it's just that I have never noticed before?

I am pleased to see that on the whole UKIP are not doing well. Labour, despite having the 'unelectable' Corbyn could be be doing better, but could be doing worse. The Tories, despite May's apparent huge popularity are only doing so-so, but that is perhaps to be expected, in that they will have won seats in 2015 when the mood of the country was with them, and now people are reverting back.

CeciledeVolanges · 14/10/2016 08:47

Wow, this is Jacob Rees-Mogg saying that those who voted Remain in his constituency were an "infection".

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.
CeciledeVolanges · 14/10/2016 08:48

Valentine another one here looking at Australia/Canada/New Zealand/Scandinavia/France/Germany :(

RedToothBrush · 14/10/2016 08:59

Well what do you know... Poole was taken from the Conservatives by the Lib Dems. There seems to be a bit of a pattern forming at a local level.

Stanley interesting too. Con hold but lost ground to ldems by look of it, whilst lab lost ground to ukip. Ukip vote doesn't look to have shifted to the Cons at least. If they can't do it there you wonder if they can do it elsewhere really particularly in the north.

On my phone at the moment but will post up results in full soon.

Witney next week. The lib Dems are going to get a good showing I'm pretty sure. Not sure they can win it but swing elsewhere have in council elections have been bit enough. Running the Tories close would probably be sufficient to worry people. A win would be spectacular and put a cat amongst the pigeons.

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RedToothBrush · 14/10/2016 09:00

Swanley even

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Peregrina · 14/10/2016 09:12

LibDems are pulling out all the stops in Witney, but defeating a 25,000 majority, is asking a lot. In 1997 when there was the Labour landslide nationally they still won with a 7,000 majority. So that might be regarded as their bedrock vote - the sort of people who would die rather than vote other than Tory.

Peregrina · 14/10/2016 09:16

Why is Kent such a hot bed of UKIPery?

merrymouse · 14/10/2016 09:35

Why is Kent such a hot bed of UKIPery?

Migrants in Calais are basically heading for Dover.

Coastal towns like Margate have been left behind. Closeness to London possibly increases the sense of exclusion.

London did have an industrial past, but when the docks closed the old residents moved out to Kent and Essex. In the old days a manual worker could feel that they earned a good living. Not any more.

Beyond that, Kent has pretty villages full of people who dont want change, just like Surrey or Hampshire.

merrymouse · 14/10/2016 09:38

Also, Scottish/Welsh/Irish/Northern pride is acceptable.

If you are poor and live in the South East, who do you identify with?