Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

[RedToothBrush]

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

It's another very obvious case of middle class metropolitan elite entitlement.

Membership of the metropolitan elite sounds fun. I suspect it is all about cocktails and opening nights. Who would have thought that there were 16 million metropolitan elite people in the UK?

I will watch the Scottish Referendum with interest. What if the vote goes 52% in favour?

You see? Basing your opinions on outdated ideas. I don't see how she can afford to ignore. It is very dangerous, this them and us divide, you see it in the migrant situation. If huge swathes of our own population felt less ignored/shat upon, if they felt they were doing ok..don't you think they would have a more charitable approach to others - or simply less time to worry about immigration? Don't you see the correlation in this to leave votes in areas of low immigration but high deprivation? You know, fecklessness wears all colours of skin. We need to stop writing our own people off while championing others.

Merry, it is not 16 million people who are in denial of the result of the vote though, is it? It is a very very small number who are in the position of being able to shout the loudest. These threads are an example. You can see that the number of regular posters have fallen away, there is just the same old handful, cherry picking scraps to post.

Exactly Mother. For all the posturing of the SNP, they want (or need rather) every vote to count.

Questions for The Brexit Department

Taken from Guardian Live feed and slightly abbreviated

Questions for the Brexit Department answered by David Davis, David Jones and Robin Walker (Ministers in the department)

Q: Will he make getting a transitional deal a priority?
Davis suggests government is open to having transitional arrangements in place when the UK leaves the EU.

Q: Uncertainty is a major concern for business. Can Davis guarantee business that the government will seek a transitional arrangement if a free trade deal with the EU cannot be negotiated within two years.
Davis says maintaining stability of the City and the European financial markets is essential. So the government will do “anything necessary”. But he says at the point of exit all the rules will be the same.
[Almost a confirmation that transition deal is potentially on the cards. Will worry hard line Brexiteers, but this is a sensible approach – indeed probably the only viable one as the alternative is chaos. EU may refuse this though. Echoes what May said yesterday]

Q: Is the government is ruling out paying for market access to the EU.
Davis says he will not comment on leaks. He says Labour has accepted the ministers should not undermine the government’s negotiating position.
[Well doesn’t that confirm its really being considered that the UK will continue to pay as that was the leak?!]

Q: The government has agreed to give MPs a debate on its Brexit plans. When will those plans be available?
Davis says the Commons also agreed that any disclosures should not undermine the government’s negotiating position. He says between now and the triggering of article 50 “much information” will be put out by the government.
[They didn’t technically agree this actually. They didn’t have a lot of choice in the matter due to an amendment being made to their opposition debate title by the government]

Q: Asks for an assurance that the government does not want to leave the customs union.
Davis says these matters are serious. The government is taking its time. Being inside the customs union has advantages, but cuts off trade deals with other countries. Being outside has some disadvantages, but allows those trade deals to be struck.

Q: A Conservative, says businesses in his constituency want some clarity about what the trading relationship with the UK will be. When will they get that?
Davis says the government’s aims are already clear. On the market front, it wants the best possible access to the EU.
[So clear this is why someone is asking his own party to clarify. Whilst Davis also can't confirm anything about movement of people, EU citizen's rights or whether we will remain in or out the customs union or single market. Dead clear.]

Q: What the government will do to ensure the UK can still recruit talent from abroad.
Davis says his job is to bring back the power to control immigration. The government will then decide how to use that power. But MPs can be “very confident” that the government will not be limiting the ability of talent to come to the UK. There will be no Brexit migration curbs on "highly intelligent, highly capable" migrants. There will be "Free Movement of brain power" after Brexit promises David Davis

Q: When the government will publish its assessment of the impact of Brexit.
Davis says the government is conducting a central assessment. It is looking at the impact of Brexit on 51 different sectors of the economy. And it will take into account regional factors.
[So no date as the scope of this impact is taking a long time to work out and we don’t want anyone to know how bad it looks]

David Jones says the government will ensure that EU regional funding sums are guaranteed until 2020.

Q: If the government accepts that an element of free movement must remain. This is important for science.
Robin Walker says David Davis in his Conservative party conference said Brexit would not mean pulling up the drawbridge.

Q: Asks if the government will consider a plan to give London the ability to issue its own work visas to EU citizens.
Walker says the government will do what is best for the UK as a whole.

Q: Asks if the government will explore ways of ensuring Northern Ireland can stay in the single market if the rest of the UK leaves.
Davis says the government is committed to keeping an open border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, and to getting the best access to the single market. He will not go beyond that now, he says.
[So not ruled out then.]

Q: Leaving the customs union could lead to exporters having to comply with rules or origin rules, increasing costs by 25%. So isn’t the customs union even more important than the single market.
Davis says Norway, which is outside the customs union, trades perfectly well with Sweden. He says these issues are being considered.

Q: Asks for an assurance that the UK will not row back on EU environment standards. Not all EU laws are bad.
Walker says the government wants to maintain environment standards.

Q: There is significant concern in the agriculture community about leaving the EU.
Walker says there is close cooperation between his department and Defra.

Q: Says employment law is a devolved matter for Northern Ireland. So will it get control of employment law when powers are taken back from the EU.
Davis says there will be discussions with the devolved administrations to make sure powers go to the right place.
[Sounds potentially ominous to me. Should know this and be able to confirm it]

Q: Says a Lords committee has published a report saying parliament should be consulted before article 50 is invoked. Does Davis think the referendum result should take precedence?
Davis says he has not read the report.
[Best get reading then, seeing as its pretty important. Was released at midnight]

Q: Asks if he government has prepared draft emergency legislation in case it loses the court case challenging its right to invoke article 50 without a vote.
Davis says ministers do not comment on ongoing court cases.

Q: Asks if the government will continue to make payments to the EU after it has left.
Davis says he will not answer that.
[Peston, way back said this was apparently one of May’s ‘red lines’. Davis said earlier that he would not comment on leaks]

Q: Asks how much the government will have to spend on legacy commitments. She says the Financial Times says these could cost Britain £20bn.
Davis says the European Commission, talking about how it negotiates, says it does not publish its negotiating position. Confidentiality is necessary to achieve a successful outcome, it says. He says Labour is trying to put the government at a disadvantage.
Davis accuses Labour of undermining the national interest by demanding details of the government’s negotiating position.
[This seems quite a response to the question. It seems to be a point of contention. I would suggest that UK might well threaten not to pay as one of its ‘bargaining chips’]

Q: Says the Welsh first minister should have a seat on the UK government’s negotiating team to protect Wales’s interests.
Davis says he met the first minister recently. That is how they will do this, he says.

Q: Says people in Scotland are worried about being stuck on a small island with perpetual Tory governments. Will Davis commit to fully devolving employment law to Scotland?
Davis says he is the one who has guaranteed that employment rights will not be watered down. He says he is due to meet Mike Russell, the Scottish Brexit minister, to discuss this tomorrow.
[How come he couldn't say that employment rights in NI would not be watered down nor say that this was in discussion? Inconsistent approach to NI and Scotland going on - they are being treated differently]

there is just the same old handful, cherry picking scraps to post.

Or as I like to think of it, people who are interested in politics following current events at a time when the UK is about to make massive irreversible changes.

I would definitely agree that 16 million people aren't posting on this thread.

BoredofBrexit
With respect, the vote that carried was to no longer remain as a member of the EU. By extension that should mean that by ceasing to be a member, membership fees cease to be paid and club rules club rules cease to be followed. The Remain side cannot make that connection. That is the message that any post referendum Brexit campaign should get across. That we are leaving. Simples.

This is one of the funniest posts on Brexit I've seen in a while.

Yes I'll bit.

1. NI voted remain
2. Ireland (and the international treaty Good Friday agreement)
3. Scotland voted to remain
4. Laws that need changing to facilitate Brexit
5. EU bodies that we would need to replicate
6. Rights of British citizens living abroad
7. Potential for government to be hit with a ton of compensation claims (see Nissan - who Thatcher made a guarantee to that we would never leave the Single Market. Also see acquired rights of British citizens.)
8. Gibraltar voted 98% to remain. They also voted not to have co-sovereignty with Spain democratically. Position is that they could be isolated and Spain block them. Also a massive problem in negotiations as Spanish position is they want co-sovereignty and will use the issue as a veto.
9. No clear mandate about what Leavers actually voted FOR. Only that they didn't want to be in the EU.
10. Position on WTO not clear
11. Referendum only advisory. Still correct in a parliamentary democracy to have an on going conversation about it
12. There is the biggest constitutional law case in living memory going on, regarding Brexit as it is not clear on how we even serve notice of intent to leave. I could carry on.

If it was so simples, I wouldn't be able to make this list, parliament would not be seeking answers to these questions, there would not be open revoke in the Tory party and there would be a published paper about what the fuck Brexit means.

I'd hate to see what you regard as difficult.

same old handful, cherry picking scraps to post

If, as you say, nobody is paying attention any more and apparently everything is completely decided and clear and WILL HAPPEN, why can't this tiny handful of irrelevant loudmouths who are still interested carry on discussing it?

Bored As we have discussed on here the majority of the leave vote was actually cast in the Tory heartlands by middle class Tory voters. I totally understand where the voters in disadvantaged areas like the North East were coming from but whilst they delivered the leave vote they were not the majority. TM can afford to adopt the rhetoric as she did at the conferance because she knows she will carry that Tory vote with her but in terms of actually taking action? All we have had so far is the Grammar /Faith School proposal, a middle class / Tory crowd pleasing idea spun out as in the cause of social mobility. Except if you know anything about the admissions arrangements for Grammar Schools and the legal framework they have to operate in, let alone all the analyses of outcomes, it is very apparent they do not and cannot be an effective way to deliver greater opportunity. Now if she had proposed to roll out the measures that were adopted as part of the London challenge that are now actually delivering measurably better outcomes for poor pupils in inner city London schools I might have a little more faith in her words but I don't think there is any indication that the actions will actually match the word, though of course she will attempt to spin it that way.

Sorry the same applies to Faith Schools, as there is the same failure to reflect the socio economic profile of their communities.

there is just the same old handful, cherry picking scraps to post.

With respect, these are largely because they reflect the range of questions being thrown up and the problems that are being put forward.

This thread really is about identifying these and trying to pick the government's response to those concerns.

This is information that should be put forward in order to reassure concerns. If you have any solutions to this concerns you are more than welcome to also post and point us in the direction of them rather than merely dismissing them.

If you look at today's debate in the HoC where Davis answered questions, you will see that he refused to answer a number of these questions and is persistent in the nonsense that this weakens the governments hand somehow. The EU KNOW what our bargaining chips are. There will be more leaks than a sieve anyway, so the likihood is that parliament find out things from the press as the Cabinet can't agree and try to use the press to manipulate the situation to get their own way which is just not right. The uncertainty and inability (and unwillingness) to try and work to consensus or reassurance is not in the national interest.

If you disagree, no one is stopping you post pro-Brexit things and articles (in addition to the pro-brexit stuff there is already posted).

Remainers were asked to contribute to putting together a plan when it became clear. Yet when the do, they are accused of being unpatriotic and not accepting the result. And the government still can't put together a plan which even acknowledges problems. We keep getting the believe bullshit. Not to mention the Leavers who now have deep concerns about the direction in which the government is lurching from one minute to the next.

Its a fucking shambles and it deserves to be called up on. By Remainers and Leavers in the National Interest, if you really are a patriot. Otherwise we stand to make the next big national disastrous decision like PFI or Iraq war. Look how well they worked out.

Hey look at this:
www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2016/10/garvan-walshe-the-government-is-making-the-same-five-strategic-mistakes-on-brexit-that-we-made-in-iraq.html
Garvan Walshe: The Government is making the same five strategic mistakes on Brexit that we made in Iraq

Conservative Home (that's the conservative party's website for supporters) has this wonderful article on the parallels on the mistakes we made in Iraq in terms of the decision making process. They are:

1. Dismissing Inconvenient Experts
2. Believing your own propaganda
3. Mistaking the reasons used to justify the mission with what’s required to make it work
4. Forgetting that our reputation among foreigners matters to foreign policy
5. Shock and awe doesn’t get you very far

Brexit is the most serious undertaking a British government needed to do since the Second World War and the Government needs to rise to the challenge the voters have given it. This means it needs to be honest with itself and the voters about the difficulty of the task they have been set (no more refusing to listen to foreign academics or dismissing Treasury economists’ calculations as bogus); stop believing that side-deals to British advantage will be easy to obtain; treat immigration as the important public concern that it is, not the overriding one it isn’t; stop threatening the citizens of the countries it has to negotiate with; and start making serious efforts to bring the country, through its representatives in Parliament, the devolved administrations and mayors, with them. Call this the Brexit Surge.

Lots of doubters COULD be on board with the idea of Brexit. IF they were given a bit more than the current crock of shit.

Well said!

The journey has to begin with acceptance of the direction that UK will be taking, and the vocal minority have not got there yet. Your posts were more balanced before Red but now there is a real sense of playing to your fan club.

Red 12.32 post. Points listed. Irrelevant - it was a UK referendum, one person one vote. And not sure exactly what you are getting at by listing the other stuff - do you imagine these things were not know or anticipated?

Elements, chat away. It's a mums forum for idling away spare time.

acceptance of the direction that UK will be taking

I'm sure you will be able to enlighten us with what this actually is then, apart from away from the EU.

For example, single market yes/no, xenophobia yes/no, EU citizens in/out, skilled migrants more/fewer, financial services passporting priority over immigration yes/no...

In response to boredofbrexit - I am watching this thread very closely and have done from its beginning. It is my go to place to keep up with all that is happening and much of what is being said about Brexit. I am finding the comment hugely interesting and thought provoking.

I very rarely post as there are many much more eloquent and knowledgeable people than me who usually post what I am thinking.

Number of posters is no indication of how widely a thread is being absorbed and appreciated.

For background I was a reluctant remainer and could easily have voted the other way.

I am horrified by how the Government is disregarding parliamentary democracy on a matter of such importance and following such a tiny referendum majority. I can't see how haste is of any benefit to anyone other than the Tory party and I am ashamed of my country that our politicians are showing themselves to be short term political opportunists rather than people who genuinely care for the country they serve.

Bored, I won't even dignify with an answer to that one apart from to say, no they were not properly addressed and that the entire point. They are far from irrelevant. If they had been considered, we would not be sat talking about possible plans.

Perhaps if they aren't relevant you can point me in the direction of what the solutions are as they should be in the public domain. If they aren't, why aren't they?

Negotiation strategy doesn't cut it.

Try harder. Answer the question. What are the solutions?