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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 16:42

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

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BoredofBrexit · 20/10/2016 10:37

With respect, the vote that carried was to no longer remain as a member of the EU. By extension that should mean that by ceasing to be a member, membership fees cease to be paid and club rules club rules cease to be followed. The Remain side cannot make that connection. That is the message that any post referendum Brexit campaign should get across. That we are leaving. Simples.

TheBathroomSink · 20/10/2016 10:40

This Politico piece from one of Cameron's aides on the renegeotiation and Referendum campaign is an interesting, if long, read. It has a lot of good points about how the UK's relationship with the EU has been going off course for years, and is quite open about the mistakes the official remain campaign made, if you overlook the overarching 'it wasn't all Dave's fault' tone.

merrymouse · 20/10/2016 10:41

With respect, that is not the case.

Switzerland, Norway etc. are not members of the EU. They pay the EU to be part of the single market.

There was no vote on single market membership.

Official Leave campaign leaflets specifically mentioned Switzerland as an example of a country that the UK could emulate having left the EU.

Peregrina · 20/10/2016 10:41

That we are leaving. Simples.

If 'Simples' were the case, then Art. 50 would have been invoked 4 months ago. Better have a word with Theresa May and ask her why she is dithering. Except she does have a reputation for dithering - Hinkley Point, HS2, Heathrow 3rd runway.

merrymouse · 20/10/2016 10:43

^ above post was to boredofbrexit

TheBathroomSink · 20/10/2016 10:43

Simples.

Ah, ok then. That'll absolutely fix all the many problems which have been identified since the vote, won't it?

whatwouldrondo · 20/10/2016 10:48

Bored Erm no that is not how the leaders of the leave campaign represented the vote eg here www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-eu-referendum-single-market-brexit-a7104846.html

It was represented to the voting public, even by UKIP's Carswell, as a vote that would maintain access to the single market. A lot of people voted for leave in order to return to the situation where the UK were part of a free trade area but not the wider political union. These campaigners knew they had to enlist that constituency of the vote which is why they lied.

LurkingHusband · 20/10/2016 10:53

Simples

I wonder if there are any other monolexical phrases which reflect the authors thinking as well as expressing it quite so well ?

BoredofBrexit · 20/10/2016 10:58

Time will tell. I hope TM steers a steady course out and that many of us get behind her.

Peregrina · 20/10/2016 10:59

I hope she goes the way of David Cameron myself.

merrymouse · 20/10/2016 11:10

I hope TM steers a steady course out and that many of us get behind her.

I hope she explains her thinking and shows her workings.

tiggytape · 20/10/2016 11:16

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tiggytape · 20/10/2016 11:17

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RedToothBrush · 20/10/2016 11:18

Some interesting developments this morning. Just writing up.

May is in Brussels today, Witney (Cons 1/25 to win with Lib Dems on 7/1)

Lords have released their Brexit paper (it was released at midnight). Davis has not read it. It backs parliamentary scrutiny and involvement at every stage. (More pressure to suck it up and accept this is a democracy for the Leavers)

Talk of 'highly educated' migration not being stopped. Also talk of removing students from migration figures (that might be a climb down from May)

Near confirmation that a transition deal is on the cards (important as would mean no 'full Brexit' in 2019 - will cause fury for some)

OP posts:
smallfox2002 · 20/10/2016 11:21

Red, do you think if there is no full brexit in 2019 its essentially been kicked into the long grass and what we'll get is a form of brexit lite?

BoredofBrexit · 20/10/2016 11:31

Why would it cause fury? Leaving in the best way will take time; as long as the intent is clear, there shouldn't be fury. This fallacy that leavers all want to race headlong to a cliff is entirely fabricated by those in denial; those that bad their views on outdated models; those that reside to consider that there can be another way, a more equitable way for the population as a whole. In the time it takes to move towards an exit I would hope that domestic redistributions of wealth and resources starts to happen, that many who voted leave see a result of what was for some I agree, a protest vote. Then, when the time comes there might be less danger of vehement uprisings. But the position many Remainers have taken drives a wedge through the possibility of moving on, moving forward. It's another very obvious case of middle class metropolitan elite entitlement.

LurkingHusband · 20/10/2016 11:34

Red, do you think if there is no full brexit in 2019 its essentially been kicked into the long grass and what we'll get is a form of brexit lite?

The question is what will EU2019 look like ? Another complication is that current talk of Brexit is predicated on EU2016.

It's like trying to shoot a target on a ship miles away in rough seas.

Peregrina · 20/10/2016 11:41

This fallacy that leavers all want to race headlong to a cliff is entirely fabricated by those in denial;

At last we are beginning to hear something of what you would like to happen i.e. domestic redistribution of wealth and resources, but that could have been said 4 months ago and wasn't.

Instead this view that we want to race headlong over a cliff has been promoted by the majority of Leavers, the vast number of whose contribution has been 'suck it up, losers', blind to which direction they are going in.

BoredofBrexit · 20/10/2016 11:42

And smallfox, it's likely quite the opposite. May will begin domestic reforms, open negotiations, the EU will begin to eat itself, European elections will destabilise further not to mention US and recession. Conservatives will detail exactly what form Brexit will take in their manifesto, win the GE and motor ahead. And since you all like it so much I'll say it again - simples.

CeciledeVolanges · 20/10/2016 11:45

Bored no, it is predicated on the evidence of Leavers racing headlong to a cliff.

BoredofBrexit · 20/10/2016 11:50

Pere, stuff like domestic reforms have been mentioned by leavers but small and others dismiss by saying it's irrelevant, domestic, shouldn't have based a leave vote on those matters. All absolutely true. But they did. Now, whether a section of leave voters are sufficiently politically engaged to be that bothered whether we Brexit or not, I don't know, they are probably not. But they WILL be bothered if their 'proxy' vote if you want to describe it as such, is derailed. I think the key is to try and deal with the causes of the vote domestically, get the country in a better shape, talk to Scotland and Ireland in a less combatitive manner, take our time, accept we are coming out but not out in a way that spites one or the other section of society. It's this 'we will block Brexit full stop' that is the problem. While you are opposing you are not engaging.

BoredofBrexit · 20/10/2016 11:51

I disagree Cecile. What is that statement based on?

PattyPenguin · 20/10/2016 11:51

BoredofBrexit I presume that "domestic reforms" refers to "redistribution of wealth and resources" to the left behind and to creating, in Theresa May's own words "an economy that works for all".

I would love to see Theresa May begin to do that, I really would.

But I won't be holding my breath.

Peregrina · 20/10/2016 11:54

I wouldn't count your chickens too much on domestic reforms. Only ones which help wealthy Tories will happen. May's empty rhetoric on the steps of No 10 was just that, empty.

tiggytape · 20/10/2016 12:00

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