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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 16:42

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

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RedToothBrush · 19/10/2016 11:33

Yes he is.

Is he remain or leave? Is he hard or soft?

Or just a inconsistent flip flopper?

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tiggytape · 19/10/2016 12:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PattyPenguin · 19/10/2016 12:21

That's Trump's MO. Anything he fails at (which is quite a lot) it's always someone else's fault, he was robbed, he's been conspired against.

prettybird · 19/10/2016 12:40

Going back to yesterday: interesting set of questions for Davis. Would be lovely if he actually answered them Hmmbut I'm not holding my breath Can we have a bingo card for all the different ways he he can say, "Brexit means Brexit"? Wink

On the Empire the world coloured pink and the Brexiteers desire to return to that time: in way they're right Shock. It was indeed a time of global Free Trade Area. The bit that they're ignoring is that we imposed that "Free Trade" in some cases by force. it wasn't always with willing partners (unless they were rich ok, not much has changed). So the Indian farmers were forced to produce indigo rather than food for themselves; and cheap cotton clothes from the UK were dumped in India (ironic, huh? Confused)

On the Spectator article re press censorship and a single party state: the essence of it seems to be "there's an unsavoury journalist who isn't being given a voice; some of his stories were against the SNP; the fact that the SNP have denied having anything to do with shutting him up and no-one else seems interested in the story (because he really wasn't a very nice person) means it must be down to one-party state censorship" HmmConfused It's either tin-foil, conspiracy thinking or sheer visceral hatred of the SNP (think it is the latter).

Interesting fact - make of it what you will - the Communication Directors for all 3 main parties in Scotland (SNP, Conservative, Labour) all used to work for the same guy at the Scottish Daily Mail Shock

TheBathroomSink · 19/10/2016 12:51

Tom Peck ‏@tompeck
Another cake on its way to Heathrow from the Amsterdam Schiphol chief exec. He sends one to say thank you every time the decision is delayed. (This is true, by the way. He really does do this. They've had, I think, seven large and very fancy cakes now)

I really do like this as a response, although it would perhaps be better if he were sending them to the PM.

whatwouldrondo · 19/10/2016 12:54

Interesting article in the Spectator, accounting for bias, on Zac Goldsmiths chances of winning a by election in Richmond Park based on his failure to even match the vote for Boris in the mayoral election in the wards that are part of his constituency. www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2016/10/if-zac-goldsmith-picks-fight-richmond-park-hell-lose-it

Local word is that he will resign if there is an announcement that the government is backing the third runway through a period of consultation. In fact what the Spectator article does not mention is that in the wards that make up his constituency Sadiq Khan polled more than 30 % of the vote in a constituency where Labour rarely poll more than 10%. Now whilst race will not be an issue in this election Zac's misogyny might be. Trumps behaviour towards Clinton in the TV debates reminded me of Zac's behaviour towards the previous Libdem MP Susan Kramer in TV interviews and local debates, with a dose of patrician arrogance thrown in. The Libdem candidate is a woman.

Add in that he campaigned for Brexit when over 70% voted to remain and it has to be a libdem prospect. Something for TM to consider after the Witney result....

TheBathroomSink · 19/10/2016 12:54

BTW, in PMQs TM has just slipped in the fact that negotiations might take more than 2 years, which would put them firmly in GE territory, especially if March notification is delayed by the court case.

Does rather make me wonder if delaying is her overall objective, given she may have killed Ukip stone dead by then and could maybe aim for the GE campaign to be slightly more rational than the referendum was?

RedToothBrush · 19/10/2016 13:30

Anyone see 'Who's spending Britain's billions?' on BBC2 last night (on iplayer now). Just watching it now.

Shocking. Experts. One's that we shouldn't like.

Unfortunately I'm completely unsurprised.

Weirdly, I've been trying to articulate the whole anti-expert thing over the last week (both before and after I watched Hypernormalism) and I'm working on something which fits in with this.

I think there is something to be said for some of the 'experts' feeling - and how there is a problem with accountability and scrutiny and a common sense approach.

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merrymouse · 19/10/2016 13:33

Re: Richmond park, resigning and standing against the run way only makes sense if the Lib dems are for the run way, which they aren't.

prettybird · 19/10/2016 13:34

I predicted a while ago that the exit would take effect close to the GE (although I did think that she'd delay triggering A50 until end 2017/early 2018) so that the electorate wouldn't have had time to feel the full impact and consequences (rather than "just" implications) before the actual election.

merrymouse · 19/10/2016 13:35

I also think the whole 'citizen of nowhere' speech will have really annoyed Richmond Park constituents.

RedToothBrush · 19/10/2016 13:39

From Guardian Live feed re PMQ. Think this story will grow legs and run for a good long while yet, haunting May. And of course its completely unrelated to any mandate or will of the people as a get out of jail free card

Guardian story:
13:00
There was also a strong question from the Labour MP Lisa Nandy, who asked about the revelation yesterday that the Home Office was told about concerns about Dame Lowell Goddard, the child sexual abuse inquiry chair, earlier than the Home Office had admitted. Nandy asked May:
She set up the inquiry, she appointed the chair, she was the individual responsible for the inquiry’s success, she was the home secretary in April and she was the only person who had the power to act. Can she now finally tell us when she personally learnt of the serious problems developing in this inquiry and why it was she took no action at all?
May replied:

The home secretary cannot intervene on the basis of suspicion, rumour or hearsay.
This is significant because it implies that May had heard concerns about Goddard before 29 July, the date when inquiry staff formally complained to the Home Office.
But May also said that, although concerns were raised with a Home Office director general in April (as MPs were told at a committee hearing yesterday), that conversation was confidential. May said:

She refers to the statement that was made yesterday in this House ... She will also have noted that that conversation was asked to be confidential .... I think it is important for us to recognise that when the Home Office was officially informed of issues it acted.

13:31
Following her question at PMQs the Labour MP Lisa Nandy is now saying Theresa May must come clean about when she knew about the concerns about Dame Lowell Goddard’s leadership of the child sexual abuse inquiry. In a statement Nandy said:

Theresa May set up the abuse inquiry and appointed its chair. She was the home secretary in April when serious concerns were raised with her department, and only she had the power to act on them. Today she suggested that she did know of problems but did nothing at all. For this investigation to regain the trust of survivors the prime minister must now come clean about what she knew when, and why she failed to intervene.

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RedToothBrush · 19/10/2016 14:02

Just seen this on twitter. Its a quote from Jamaican born Stuart Hall who was "surely one of the most important British-based thinkers of the 20th century. With a few others he pretty much invented 'cultural studies' and his work on multiculturalism and identity is cited throughout the world."

'People like me who came to England in the 1950s have been there for centuries; symbolically, we have been there for centuries. I was coming home. I am the sugar at the bottom of the English cup of tea. I am the sweet tooth, the sugar plantations that rotted generations of English children's teeth. There are thousands of others beside me that are, you know, the cup of tea itself. Because they don't grow it in Lancashire, you know. Not a single tea plantation exists within the United Kingdom. This is the symbolization of English identity - mean, what does anybody in the world know about an English person except that they can't get through the day without a cup of tea? Where does it come from? Ceylon - Sri Lanka, India. That is the outside history that is inside the history of the English. There is no English history without that other history'.

More about him here:
transpont.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/stuart-hall-1931-2010-sugar-at-bottom.html

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/19/brexit-damage-vets-warn-anti-foreigner-rhetoric-putting-peop
Ian Dunt has written a piece about how Brexit is affecting Vets and putting animals at risk. We all know how much Brits love their pets...

Also in PMQ:
Chris Ship ‏@chrisshipitv
This government will take a decision "this month" says May on Heathrow/Gatwick. But gives no clue which
I note Boris was smirking behind the PM as she spoke about the imminent decision on Heathrow/Gatwick
Ken Clarke: will TM take action to stop Brexiteers attacking cabinet colleagues?
TM replies to Ken Clarke with stock "movement of people" & "best possible access" to single market ... blah blah blah

Interesting to see a Tory attack his own PM on behalf of half the cabinet - they clearly don't feel they can...

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/19/investigatory-powers-bill-snoopers-charter-lib-dem-labour?CMP=twt_gu
The Lib Dems oppose this snooper’s charter. Why doesn’t Labour?

I was a police officer for over 30 years and retired with an exemplary record as one of the most senior officers at Scotland Yard. If I thought the changes Liberal Democrats sought to make to this bill would have made any of us less safe, I could not have supported them. As I told the House of Lords on Monday: “I am a lousy politician. I cannot stand here and say things that I do not believe just because they are my party’s policy. I am opposing this because I genuinely oppose the disproportionate invasion of privacy that ICRs represent.” Only three Labour peers voted with us – I only wish the former Liberty director Shami Chakrabarti had been one of them.

Bloody disgraceful Chakrabarti. If only you had any credibility left...

I also nominate M&S's new Croloaf to the Shit Brexit Ideas Committee (Sorry should that be The Brexit Cabinet?)
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/marks-and-spencer-launches-croloaf_uk_58075243e4b07ebc072bd782?e7bgg4xajyczncdi&

Wait until Leadsom hears about these babies. They'll be up for an export award before you know it.

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Unicornsarelovely · 19/10/2016 14:23

Thank you for the links again.

The letter from the grandad made interesting reading. My main thought was "just because you don't understand it, and it isn't your normal, doesn't mean its wrong or unhealthy abnormality" and that includes lack of war through to uppity women and black people you're not allowed to be rude to.

I was also thinking about the shouts of treachery etc and it reminded me of this Hugo Rifkind article: www.spectator.co.uk/2016/08/the-best-thing-about-brexit-none-of-it-is-my-fault/

Now we're in a world where 48% (or thereabouts) of the population are watching the government and waiting for them to fuck everything up. with occasional helpful comments from the sidelines about things they've forgotten, or that they've started in the wrong place etc.
I wouldn't be surprised if as it all starts to sink it some people get very very defensive and up the shouts of treachery to try and hide their own incompetence.

smallfox2002 · 19/10/2016 14:25

I really admire your stamina red. Well done!

TheBathroomSink · 19/10/2016 14:28

The Lib Dems oppose this snooper’s charter. Why doesn’t Labour?

I'm not sure 'Labour' are really doing anything at the moment, are they? There's individual MPs, like Nandy, Starmer, Frank Field raising important questions but there's no sense of a collective aim. Also:
Laura Kuenssberg ‏@bbclaurak 1h1 hour ago
Apparently Labour press team didn't turn up for post #pmqs briefing

TheBathroomSink · 19/10/2016 15:10

On my own theory that TM has been actively trying to kill Ukip:

Michael Savage ‏@michaelsavage 29m29 minutes ago
Theresa May appears to have nuked Ukip...
@IpsosMORI:
CON 47%
LAB 29%
Lib Dem 7%
UKIP 6%

Apparently that's the highest Tory lead since 2010.

I would also give full credit to everyone associated with Ukip in any way, for being so very helpful to TM, in this task.

RedToothBrush · 19/10/2016 15:15

Westminster voting intention:
CON: 47% (+7)
LAB: 29% (-5)
LDEM: 7% (+1)
UKIP: 6% (-3)
GRN: 4% (-1)
(via Ipsos Mori / 14 - 17 Oct)

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BoredofBrexit · 19/10/2016 15:24

Hammond moves away from doom and gloom

SapphireStrange · 19/10/2016 15:55

Bored, did you mean to post a link? I'm not sure what you're referring to (sorry if I'm just misunderstanding!)

TheBathroomSink · 19/10/2016 15:59

By the way, there seems to be an utterly bonkers court case going on in Scotland where someone is claiming to be Jesus, and is currently being chased around the court by the police. @BBCPhilipSim is tweeting it.

Latest update:
Philip Sim ‏@BBCPhilipSim 13m13 minutes ago
So we actually have two competing Christs here in court. The new one also backs independence, and wants to lodge some evidence of his own

lalalonglegs · 19/10/2016 16:01

Hammond is currently discussing Brexit with the Treasury Committee - searching but can't find much to suggest he is moving away from doom and gloom.

CeciledeVolanges · 19/10/2016 16:11

The case isn't about Jesus though, as far as I understand it is about evidence and they have made claims about God in evidence or something.

CeciledeVolanges · 19/10/2016 16:15

It's about independence. Sometimes I should think before I type.

BoredofBrexit · 19/10/2016 16:43

Sorry, yes, I did. It's coming up in a BBC newsfeed