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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 16:42

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

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Thread gallery
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lalalonglegs · 18/10/2016 15:20

Thank you for your very thorough explanation, Red. I was labouring under the misapprehension that, while both sides in the A50 challenge accepted that A50 was irreversible, the judges wanted clarity on it.

Talking of a long way to go, the Telegraph website has a clock counting down to the last day of March by which time May has said A50 will be invoked. I'm not sure whether it is meant to capture the sheer excitement of it - "just 164 sleeps until the A50 trigger is pushed!" - or a warning to us all - "just 164 days to save the UK!"

RedToothBrush · 18/10/2016 15:20

David Allen Green ‏@DavidAllenGreen
1. Article 50 case hearing as good as over.

Some thoughts.
2. The case is not about whether Article 50 notification is sent, but who decides/approves.
3. Government says it can be done by executive order ("royal prerogative"), claimants say it should be done by parliament.
4. Even if government loses, there is no reason why parliament will vote against it. In this way, it is a question of a form.
5. The case is finely balanced. The government has a lot of power under the Royal Prerogative, especially regarding treaties.
6. But the claimants have a powerful case that rights cannot be removed by the prerogative. This case been put well by Pannick QC and others
7. The court's decision will be in a week or so, and by end of this month. But the case won't end there.
8. Regardless of the result, it is likely to be appealed to the Supreme Court for a final decision before end of the year.
9. The Supreme Court may join it with Northern Irish appeal. Scots, Welsh and Gibraltarn governments may also formally intervene.
10. So we may get a final decision on whether the Article 50 notification has to be approved by parliament by the end of the year.
11. This has all the making of the most important constitutional law case in the UK for at least a generation.

Allie Renison ‏@AllieRenison
Getting harder and harder to see Art 50 not prompting request for ECJ ruling before #Brexit happens

I agree with this. Someone will do it. It is politically important to establish this.

Sir Paul Jenkins ‏@sirpauljenkins
Pondering why govt didn't pursue poss their best point. Would rather lose at home and blame judges than go to CJEU?

Sir Paul Jenkins, makes the point that the government's best defence against the a50 challenge was actually to simply say it IS reversible. However doing this is politically difficult and leaves the government more open to rebellions and pressure to get compromise on a Hard Brexit. Which is why they avoided it and went with the line that it is not reversible.

It just goes to show the degree to which the government are prepared to go to force Brexit through without the consent of parliament.

www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/tories-in-revolt-over-heathrow-a3372236.html
Tories in revolt over Heathrow: Zac Goldsmith poised to stand as anti-heathrow candidate in by election.

Theresa May faced a sensational revolt today as local Conservatives backed Zac Goldsmith to stand as an independent anti-Heathrow candidate in a by-election.

In a bombshell development, the Tory group at Richmond Park held a private meeting last night where Mr Goldsmith confirmed he is ready to run as an independent if the government backs a new runway at Heathrow.

In a secret ballot, the group voted overwhelmingly to support Mr Goldsmith rather than an official Conservative candidate

Extraordinarily, Twickenham MP Tania Mathias took part and also vowed to support Mr Goldsmith - even though it is strictly against the party's rules to back anyone standing against an official candidate. "They see it as a referendum via the ballot box on Heathrow," said an insider.

and

The Liberal Democrats believe they could snatch victory in Richmond Park by running on an anti-runway platform, and Mrs May will now have to decide if she dares to field an official candidate against Mr Goldsmith.

It would be unprecedented for the party to avoid a by-election in a seat with a 23,000 majority, but she would risk splitting local Tories and being defeated if she imposes a candidate.

I wonder why they delayed the decision on Heathrow until after seeing how Witney goes...

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RedToothBrush · 18/10/2016 15:31

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
Uh-oh - one claimant QC now using the Home Secretary's "unguarded suggestion" of firms listing foreign workers, against Govt in Brexit case - idea being that it illustrates well the loss of rights that the Government wants to expedite via Prerogative, without Act of Parliament

Can't say I am surprised by that at all. I did think at the time that saying stuff like that, might undermine the government's defence for a50.

I was not expecting anything like that at the ConKip conference for that reason. I thought it might be an error of judgment and may well prove to be.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-nationals-in-uk-fear-administrative-harassment-even-if-they-get-permission-to-stay-a7367751.html
Brexit: EU nationals in UK fear of 'administrative harassment' even if they get permission to stay.

This is about the Lords Select Committee session about acquired rights from earlier today which heard from the Romanian and Polish ambassadors.

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LurkingHusband · 18/10/2016 15:38

'administrative harassment'

just reading that, a shiver went up and down my backbone ... at the risk f invoking Godwin, is there an origin of the phrase ?

Of course, the UK positively loves "administrative harassment" as owners of shops selling items quite legally - but to the dislike of the moral minority - know quite well.

RedToothBrush · 18/10/2016 15:47

Jim Pickard ‏@PickardJE
Lib Dems chucking everything they've got at Witney by-election: 104 out of their 108 peers have gone down there already.

Michael Crick ‏@MichaelLCrick
@PickardJE And the other four are probably dead.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/boris-johnson-gets-special-permission-9071251#ICID=sharebar_twitter
Boris Johnson gets special permission to attack his own government if it backs expanding Heathrow.

Theresa May is to suspend the normal rules which prevent Cabinet Ministers criticising Government policy when the long awaited decision on a third runway is finally announced.

It means anti-Heathrow ministers including Foreign Secretary Mr Johnson and Education Secretary Justine Greening - who both have constituencies in West London - will not have to resign if they want to maintain their opposition

Incredible! I presume someone has been threatening to, if put into that position then...

Mr Johnson previously vowed to "Lie down in front of the bulldozers" rather than see Heathrow expand

Heathrow would have given Johnson an 'honourable' reason to resign (and then be in a position to launch a bid for the PM's job at a later date?)

Has May really got an iron grip over the Cabinet, people have been suggesting???

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LurkingHusband · 18/10/2016 16:03

Has May really got an iron grip over the Cabinet, people have been suggesting???

(Dons tinfoil hat)

La May has been one of the most enthusiastic cheerleaders for the "we need more snoopy powers" and "what's with human rights" which infects all that inhabit the shadowlands of Home Secretary.

In a land where legal privilege ceased to exist (under Labour) and the governments SOP when courts find their behaviour unlawful is to retrospectively legalise it, it does rather beg the question what has Mrs. May got on her parliamentary colleagues ?

MakemineaGandT · 18/10/2016 16:25

Cecile loved your blog post - thank you.

Unicornsarelovely · 18/10/2016 16:47

May must be really worried if she's giving a free pass to rebel over Heathrow.

Thanks for all the links (even the banks profile!!!) the court tweets are very interesting.

CeciledeVolanges · 18/10/2016 16:58

Makemine how kind, thank you Grinand thanks to everyone else who read. I know my writing isn't very good but sometimes it helps getting my Brexit feelings out on paper and sharing them.

RedToothBrush · 18/10/2016 16:59

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/johnson-loses-top-aide-as-may-tightens-grip-on-her-rivals-vr50kd55z
Johnson loses top aide as May tightens grip on her rivals

Paywalled out. This link came with this though:

Tim Montgomerie ‏@montie
Fiona Hill, the PM's joint chief of staff, can't go a day without making new enemies. She endangers this government

And what I can read of the article says this:
Theresa May has stripped Boris Johnson of his most senior and influential aide as she clamps down on cabinet dissent after a series of Brexit rows.

Mr Johnson asked Will Walden, his director of communications since 2012, to follow him into the Foreign Office after his appointment in July. However, Downing Street repeatedly refused to agree to the move and this week Mr Walden withdrew his application.

Mr Johnson’s failure to keep his most senior adviser after a three-month wrangle with No 10 is a blow to his authority and adds substance to claims that Mrs May wants to rein…

Its worth going back here to the Johnson leak on Sunday. Tim Shipman said

Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound
Boris Johnson's secret article supporting Remain, written 2 days before he backed Brexit, will be revealed tonight in the Sunday Times

I think I'm only the fifth person to read Boris's case for Remain.

He later published an extract from his book saying:
Johnson sent the 'Stay' article in an email to his wife at 9.04pm. The following day he shared it with Walden and Wallace. But he quickly decided it 'was not worth the paper it was written on," saying to Walden, 'This is going to make me vomit. I just don't think this is good enough. It's a crap argument. It just isn't there'. A friend says, 'Did he want it to be? Possibly in his heart. But he never had any intention of using it, he just had t weigh up the arguments. He wanted to see if it added up to a hill of beans. He very quickly became clear in his own mind that it didn't'.

If Shipman was the fifth person to read the article who were the other four. I assume Johnson is not included in this: From this we know three - Johnson's wife, Walden and Wallace and possibly the fourth is the friend (though the friend could also be one of the three).

This means that Johnson, his wife, Walden, Wallace or one other person could have given Shipman the scope.

The question keeps coming back to 'why?'

May had already taken a swipe at Johnson at the Conservative Party Conference saying "Can Boris Johnson stay on message for four full days? Just about." Which didn't seem to go down well.

Then there was the LSE v FCO incident. There was speculation that Johnson might have had a hand in it. Possibly. Impossible to know for sure.

Last week Johnson was rumoured to be supporting Hammond over the issue of the Single Market behind closed doors. Which fits in neatly with

The Times article on Johnson Remain piece on Sunday

Today we have this article about Johnson, not being allowed his Communication Office with him at the FCO - on May's orders. This person being one of the very few people who were able to give it to The Times.

And today we also have May saying that she will allow Cabinet ministers to speak out against the Government about Heathrow, which they are not normally allowed to do, without resigning.

Hmm. There's a battle going on there.

And in news just in:

Faisal Islam @faisalislam
PM's letter to all ministers suspending collective responsibility on Heathrow: no vote for at least a year until NAtional Planning Statement
But that means Heathrow will get go ahead and then some ministers "not expected publicly to advocate Government collective position"
May learns Cameron lesson from last suspension of collective responsibility: "no minister will be permitted to campaign actively against"..
..."nor publicly criticise, or call into question decision-making process itself. Ministers will not be permitted to speak against in House"

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.
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lalalonglegs · 18/10/2016 17:04

May has just kicked the Heathrow decision into the long grass for another year according to the BBC. This comes just hours after agreeing to give the Cabinet freedom to campaign for their personal view on the subject - very suspicious strange behaviour Confused.

CeciledeVolanges · 18/10/2016 17:24

This whole thing is bizarre.

RedToothBrush · 18/10/2016 17:34

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37691270
Commons vote to ratify Brexit deal likely, says No 10

Where parliament have a gun to their heads and are told to either agree to this or get no deal at all.

(This is why whether a50 is reversible or not starts to become very important and political. May is making a gamble here too. If things get so bad, parliament could reject it, forcing the country to have a choice - chaotic exit or reverse a50. I do not rule this out).

www.theguardian.com/business/nils-pratley-on-finance/2016/oct/18/is-there-tory-conspiracy-bank-of-england-mark-carney-hague?CMP=twt_gu
Is there Tory conspiracy to unsettle Bank of England's Mark Carney?

www.alexsalmond.scot/press-releases/2016/10/18/snp-criticise-foreign-secretarys-extraordinary-levels-of-confusion-and-contradiction
SNP CRITICISE FOREIGN SECRETARY’S “EXTRAORDINARY LEVELS OF CONFUSION AND CONTRADICTION”

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/18/brexit-to-blast-huge-hole-in-northern-irelands-fragile-finances?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews
Brexit to blast huge hole in Northern Ireland's fragile finances
Region set to lose about £500m a year in EU funding is being urged to devise plan B to reduce reliance on subsidies and grants

AFP ‏@AFP
#BREAKING Renzi sees no 'major disasters' if Italy reform referendum fails

Why say this if you think you are going to win and you are campaigning to win?

Mr Renzi said he would resign if the referendum did not go through. A lot of people in Italy support Five Star Movement's opposition to the referendum, in much the same way as Brexit.

Background here:
www.ft.com/content/009468b0-3b89-11e6-8716-a4a71e8140b0
Italy may be the next domino to fall
and
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_constitutional_referendum,_2016here

The wiki link has details of recent polling. It looks 48% yes and 52% no.
Note: prior to 23rd June Yes was polling as winning more often than No. Since then it has not.

Its not looking good for Renzi...

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CeciledeVolanges · 18/10/2016 17:55

But Red whether or not Article 50 is reversible or not is not the country's choice. It is the EU's.

BoredofBrexit · 18/10/2016 18:07

And Tusk indicated EU regard it as being reversible.

CeciledeVolanges · 18/10/2016 18:28

Tusk doesn't have the last word on interpretation, the CJEU do.

lalalonglegs · 18/10/2016 18:39

I'm beginning to get a bit obsessed with the reversibility of A50, I know. I remember reading long before the referendum that it was reversible if all the other 27 countries agreed; then I read it was reversible unilaterally up to a certain point in negotiations and by agreement thereafter; then it wasn't reversible at all; now Tusk is hinting that it may be reversible. But - and apologies again for not being a legal bod - how can the CJEU - or anyone - take a view on this when (a) no one has ever triggered it before (b) the clause itself seems entirely threadbare on the subject? Would it be decided on whether other areas of EU law can be revoked or not?

RedToothBrush · 18/10/2016 18:48

This is why I contend that someone will take the issue to court to establish reversibility or not in the course of this matter at some point.

Tusk has made the comment precisely to encourage someone to do so, after first establishing whether there is a good case or not. No he does not have the final say here, but he has made the possibility a political reality.

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tiggytape · 18/10/2016 18:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BoredofBrexit · 18/10/2016 19:43

Not correct. If it was reversible under these circumstances Tiggy, UK could leave. With no deal admittedly but perhaps that doesn't matter that much to some parties.

tiggytape · 18/10/2016 20:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 18/10/2016 20:32

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/18/hard-brexit-reduce-need-airport-expansion-heathrow
Hard Brexit 'will reduce need for airport expansion'
Airlines’ trade association says number of UK air passengers could be 25 million fewer than government forecast

Well that would save one problem for the Tories.... Heathrow expansion not needed.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/18/british-tea-jam-and-biscuits-will-be-at-the-heart-of-britains-br/
British tea, jam and biscuits will be at the heart of Britain's Brexit trade plans

Another day. Another list of shit things to flog in a vague effort to try and promote the idea of Free Trade and how this is utterly amazing.

I'll give you ONE guess who unveiled this in a speech....

Jim Pickard ‏@PickardJE
Three of Corbyn's closest allies - Dave Anderson, Ian Lavery, Clive Lewis - all backing Out champion Kate Hoey for Brexit committee chair.
Also interesting that Alex Salmond, from pro-EU SNP, should nominate arch-Eurosceptic Kate Hoey to be chair of Brexit select committee....?

theconversation.com/brexit-how-a-single-word-became-the-most-powerful-rhetorical-device-in-a-generation-66871
Brexit: how a single word became the most powerful rhetorical device in ageneration

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RedToothBrush · 18/10/2016 20:38

tiggytape, I agree with all that.

I think it depends on just how desperate people get about Brexit. I also say that there maybe a mood in Europe not to agree a deal even if a50 is not reversible anyway. Gibraltar is something that springs to mind as a real sticking point.

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ToujeoQueen · 18/10/2016 22:09

After Brexit there probably won't be a need for another Heathrow runway, as less people will want, or indeed need to come here.

ToujeoQueen · 18/10/2016 22:18

Oops, sorry Red just seen you've pretty much stated the same thing.

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