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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 16:42

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

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21
ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 16/10/2016 16:02

No, labour and LibDem won't get their act together.
There will be by elections if they go for the Heathrow option, and the Consetvatove will lose seats there soon.
No need for a Hmm face.

Gumpendorf · 16/10/2016 16:02

RTB, I was saying something very similar about the Child Abuse Inquiry to a friend yesterday.

May has never properly courted the press, and I suspect Murdoch didn't get the reception he wanted when they met in NYC. The Times will rehabilitate Gove and the Sun will push Johnson. I suspect the Express will be happy with anyone who still promises to leave the EU. If the Mail starts to waver on May, it's definitely game on.

HesterThrale · 16/10/2016 16:05

BJ as PM? Horrendous thought.

Are there no decent, honourable politicians out there?

FrackingWeekend · 16/10/2016 16:07

I think he could change opinion if he would come out and say that he recognises the conditions that led to the leave vote, that these were more of domestic origin than EU, that under his leadership he will address inequality, redistribute wealth and so on. (In fact I think this is what Osborne is positioning for, with his northern powerhouse jig, but I think he will have less success due to the punishment stance he adopted during the campaign). It might explain why BJ withdrew from the contest, if he was not keen on a hard Brexit and could sniff the air around the direction the TM campaign would take, so waited back to bide his time. This is perhaps why TM appointed him to her cabinet to keep him under her command.

RedToothBrush · 16/10/2016 16:13

yougov.co.uk/news/2016/10/14/decision-article-50-should-rest-pm-not-parliament-/
Article 50 decision should rest with the PM not parliament.

New research by YouGov shows that the majority of the public believe the decision on Article 50 is the Prime Minister’s to make. Just over half (54%) say that the Prime Minister should be able to activate Article 50, compared to 30% who believe that the power to activate it should rest with Parliament. A further 17% of people don’t know.

Leave voters overwhelmingly back the PM’s right to call the shots on Article 50 by a rate of 83% to 7%. By contrast, Remain voters are much more likely to say that Parliament should make the decision, but the gap is much narrower at 57% to 31%.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3840142/Fears-Hammond-quit-Cabinet-Chancellor-excluded-key-meetings-pressure-mounts-PM-hard-Brexit.html
Fears Hammond could quit Cabinet: Chancellor 'excluded from key meetings' as pressure mounts on PM over 'hard' Brexit
Hammond's friends claim he's been deliberately excluded from meetings

Key paragraphs, though there a few titbits in there:
^They fear he will walk out of Government rather than stifle his opposition
News comes as PM faces a hostile reception at her first European Council^

Additionally, Mr Hammond is understood to have objected to Mrs May criticising Bank of England Governor Mark Carney during her party conference speech by saying that his low interest rate policy had some ‘bad side effects’ on pensioners, savers and the young.

One of the Chancellor’s allies said: ‘Philip and the PM are fighting over almost everything, and not just over the single market. Things are very tense, and we hope he doesn’t do anything rash.’

reaction.life/three-brexiteer-wheeze-unravels-may/?sf
Three Brexiteer wheeze unravels. Is May up to it?

Blog piece on whether May is up to the job.

www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/category/by-elections/
Mrs May must be hoping that the Tories do better in Thursday’s Witney contest than in recent local by elections

Analysis of the Witney By Election

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FrackingWeekend · 16/10/2016 16:15

Didn't the Times have an interview with Gove last week where he discussed the error of his thinking when he stood against BJ?

FrackingWeekend · 16/10/2016 16:18

It's times like these that I wish Spitting Image was still in production. Off to get the school shirts ironed for tomorrow.

whatwouldrondo · 16/10/2016 16:20

Chardonnay That is an interesting point. Zac Goldsmith is standing by his pledge to resign over Heathrow expansion, and he won the seat from the Libdems. The swing from Libdems to Conservative was repeated with the nearby unseating of St Vince (certainly a St in terms of his local record) and is partly to do with increasing affluence but that is doubtless also linked to the 70% remain vote. Could be far more of a realistic target seat for the Libdems than Witney.

Gumpendorf · 16/10/2016 16:32

I don't know whether it's been posted already but Zoe Williams in Guardian on the political extremism that is the govt, is worth a read

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/16/hard-brexiters-political-extremists-boris-johnson-cabinet?CMP=sharebtnn_tw Zoe Williams]

Gumpendorf · 16/10/2016 16:36

FrackingWeekend, the interview with Gove was in the Times Magazine last weekend. It was a very contrite, mea culpa piece.

RedToothBrush · 16/10/2016 16:40

A couple of spoof political videos. One for the UK and one for the US.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/tory-time-warp_uk_57ff75ace4b0ee335211bb17?
Tory Time Warp
Just a feign to the left, and then a lurch to the right

www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/will-i-am-donald-trump-grabm-by-the-pssy-funny-or-die-liane-v-a7363966.html
'GRAB’m by the P*SSY'
Will.i.am does a fitting tribute to Trump

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HesterThrale · 16/10/2016 16:48

Emphatic vote to discontinue Brexit in this Boris article on the Metro website!

metro.co.uk/2016/10/16/boris-johnsons-secret-column-for-britain-to-stay-in-the-european-union-6194705/

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.
Peregrina · 16/10/2016 17:04

No, labour and LibDem won't get their act together.
What do you mean? Won't combine to put up one candidate where Lab and LibDem splitting the 'left' vote would let the Tory romp home?

Or neither party has their act together? I can't speak for Labour, but I think the LibDems have, but their strength is much more in local politics.

RedToothBrush · 16/10/2016 17:10

Jo Maugham has just published a blog on the question of whether a50 is reversible or not.

On Thursday the High Court said that they should proceed with the People's challenge case on the assumption that a50 is not reversible.

Then on Friday Donald Tusk floated the idea that it indeed was.

Maugham said on Thursday that the court's decision that a50 was not reversible helped the claimants case but was also politically good for the government.

This article looks into why whether a50 is reversible or not is just so important. And by god its significant.

It could make the difference as to whether the claimants can win the case, but it could also change whether May might face a massive set back to her March 2017 timetable or whether there might be a good case for a 2nd referendum. The European Court of Justice might just have to get involved.

Its a must read.

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RedToothBrush · 16/10/2016 17:12

waitingfortax.com/2016/10/16/brexit-the-important-role-of-the-court-of-justice/
Maugham Blog

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ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 16/10/2016 17:15

Get their act together separately.

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 16/10/2016 17:16

I would expect Justine Greening to resign as well.

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 16/10/2016 17:19

LibDem have big chances of taking Richmond Park.

Peregrina · 16/10/2016 17:32

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/uk-foreign-born-workers_uk_57f4f023e4b0052b8ffca31a

Also good. It was below Red's first link at 16:40, so you may have already seen it.

Lilabee · 16/10/2016 18:35

Peregrina that is hilarious.

RedToothBrush · 16/10/2016 18:51

Ireland

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/16/harder-brexit-worse-for-ireland-sterling-fall
The harder the Brexit, the worse for Ireland
The decline in sterling and UK growth are damaging enough, without the uncertainty about future trading arrangements

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/16/irish-pm-calls-brexit-summit-to-confront-looming-crisis
Irish leaders fear Brexit will bring economic disaster
Enda Kenny prepares for unprecedented cross-border talks amid fears over future of Ireland’s borders, exports, security and economy

Irish leaders have warned of an economic “disaster” on both sides of the border without decisive action to confront the effects of Britain’s impending departure from the EU.

Amid warnings of “incalculable consequences” for the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland as the Brexit process unfolds, Ireland’s prime minister Enda Kenny will convene an unprecedented cross-border summit of political leaders to consider what steps to take.

The prospect of Brexit has already raised intractable questions about the border that runs across the island, and has vexed farmers who send half their beef to British dinner tables. The slump of sterling is squeezing Irish exporters and the future of Northern Ireland, which relies heavily on EU subsidies, is uncertain. Some forecasters fear that Ireland could be harder hit than Britain by the tumult.

Good stuff. How nice of us.

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/16/martin-mcguinness-calls-for-special-eu-status-for-northern-ireland
Martin McGuinness calls for special EU status for Northern Ireland
Deputy first minister says Belfast and Dublin must unite to negotiate post-Brexit deal with Brussels

McGuinness warned that unionists could turn against Westminster in the way that Scots have done in recent years because of the feeling that London doesn’t care about them. “I think there are a lot of people here beginning to feel the same, and depending on how this negotiation goes that trend will accelerate over the next couple of years.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/16/brexit-hard-borders-ireland-trade-peace-agreement-brexit
Even after Brexit, hard borders won’t be returning to Ireland
by Charlie Flanagan, Ireland's minister for foreign affairs and trade

The Guardian and Irish Times are doing a week long collaboration about Brexit.
The home page for this is here - there should be more articles during the course of the week if you have a particular interest in Brexit and the future of NI / Ireland:
www.theguardian.com/world/series/ireland-beyond-brexit

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StripeyMonkey1 · 16/10/2016 19:20

I haven't followed the article 50 case closely so far, but I have been surprised that no reference has yet been made to the European Court of Justice as to whether article 50 is reversible.

If it is not reversible, it would be bizarre to allow the executive to trigger it, thereby potentially binding parliament to repeal the European Communities Act. Given the repeal of legislation is something that can only be achieved by parliament, (and that the executive is not entitled to this on its own), surely this must be unconstitutional.

In some ways, from a Remainer perspective, the presumption of the High Court that article 50 is not reversible is very positive. It does appear to argue in favour of a parliamentary vote before it may be triggered and perhaps can tell us which way the wind may be blowing.

Even better, until we leave the EU, the Court of Justice is still supreme and in due course may itself rule that article 50 is reversible, whatever our national courts have said (and they have not even offered a view that article 50 is irreversible, rather they have said they there should be a presumption it is not).

StripeyMonkey1 · 16/10/2016 19:22

That is, our courts have suggested that there should be a presumption for present purposes that article 50 is not reversible.

Peregrina · 16/10/2016 19:41

Imagine the furore if the ECJ rules that something the Brexiteers want is Not Possible.

libertydoddle · 16/10/2016 19:46

Thanks for the heads up about the Guardian / Irish times collaboration Red. I did a little bit of Remain campaigning and when leave voters asked me why I wanted to stay I always explained the impact on Ireland and it genuinely gave leave voters I spoke to pause for thought. But as an issue it hardly featured in the campaign. Just reading some of those articles linked has left me feeling a real mix of tearful and angry. Ireland has been through some awful times, most recently with the financial crisis and even the most moderate of Irish people have a feeling of being pissed on by the English. This article by Fintan O'Toole for the Irish Times on June 24th has probably been linked here before but it's a powerful piece of writing...

www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-brexit-is-an-english-nationalist-revolution-1.2697874

At its heart are all of the things the English used to see as the province of other, less rational, nations: identity, difference, the deep passions of belonging and resentment. It did not, in the end, matter that no one on the Brexit side could articulate a coherent economic case for leaving the EU. It did not even matter that those who will take over from David Cameron will be right-wing market fundamentalists whose policies will deepen the very inequalities and alienation that have driven working class voters towards Leave. It did not even matter that the very entity in whose name independence is being claimed — the United Kingdom — is surely doomed by Brexit.

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