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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 16:42

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

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Thread gallery
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RedToothBrush · 16/10/2016 11:22
Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.
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MirabelleTree · 16/10/2016 11:27

That makes much better sense Red. It makes my head hurt all this and thank you again fir keeping these threads going

HesterThrale · 16/10/2016 11:31

Yup Boris could resign and make it look honourable: 'he doesn't agree with May's new direction'. Then reposition himself as potential new leader if there's another leadership election. I've always wondered if May appointed him as he was too dangerous to have 'outside the tent pissing in', as they say.

SwedishEdith · 16/10/2016 11:33

Thanks TheNorth!

smallfox2002 · 16/10/2016 11:33

The devalution of the pound in terms of purchasing power parity makes us £3500 worse off as of today.

SwedishEdith · 16/10/2016 11:50

I'm more cynical less generous: I think the tabloids (or at least their owners) and the Brexit politicians were fully aware of the nastiness they were unleashing as it fitted with both their short and long term vision for the country. They will not just be insulated from the damage caused, but will be positioned to profit from it

Totally agree. Arron Banks and Andy Wigmore are citizens of Belize after all.

Andy Wigmore is the guy on the left

If anyone's looking for informative Twitter accounts to follow, Otto English is good (and funny)

RedToothBrush · 16/10/2016 11:55

Its interesting to see the reaction to the Johnson thing - a lot of the reaction has been by Remainers to say "oh so he was a remainer all along". With unimpressed faces. Still he sounds a better option to May to them, and gives them the hope that yes he might turn it around.

Yet there is the detail that he didn't believe the argument which will be picked up by others who support leave.

Osborne's odds as next Tory Leader were 10/1 a couple of weeks ago. He has actually slipped back to 14/1 (and 20/1 for the next PM). Johnson is holding steady and unchanged at 6/1. I wonder if they will shift this week.

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/10/boris-johnsons-secret-article-not-quite-smoking-gun-critics-hoped/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
Boris Johnson’s ‘secret’ article is not the smoking gun his critics had hoped for

Spectator article. Pretty sympathetic to Johnson.

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merrymouse · 16/10/2016 12:13

That Spectator article has an interesting conclusion

A good point. And one most Brexiteers would admit even now: the single market is good for Britain and it will be a shame to lose it. The question is whether these economic benefits outweigh the encroachment on sovereignty.

But apparently we are now losing the single market without debate and at the behest of people who campaigned for remain...

The fundamental problem with the Brexit referendum was that it didn't give anyone a mandate to do anything. There is no majority - Remain and Leave votes split the country equally but with no agreement on either side on why or what to do next.

(And of course that wasn't supposed to matter - DC always wins referendums, remain were going to win, DC was going to get rid of the UKIP threat, end of).

Lilabee · 16/10/2016 12:42

"Arron Banks and Andy Wigmore are citizens of Belize after all."

They are citizens of the world?

FrackingWeekend · 16/10/2016 12:43

Boris is having to signal due to the Osborne threat. Maybe not that he's 'going to the other side' but that he's a moderate and not blind to the short comings of the May position, in an effort to head off a revolt led by Boy George. Any effort to unseat May at this point would be terribly unsettling (although not as horrifying as the prospect of GO as PM).

TheElementsSong · 16/10/2016 13:08

They are citizens of the world?

Grin Lila

Valentine2 · 16/10/2016 13:24

Red
Thanks for the excerpt.
can you please elaborate a little bit about what you think the chances of a general election are? With the mess that Labour leadership elections have been, I am afraid it will be Tories again. My constituency is going Labour at a breathtaking speed. Hundreds of actual members registered in last couple months or so already. This area voted Tory traditionally. Give it a year or so and it won't be Tory at this rate. Is this what May et al are recognising too?

Kaija · 16/10/2016 13:29

"It says it all when BBCs newsnight fields, in counterpoint to a City Analyst outlining the impact of losing the EU passport, a UKIP donor multi millionaire on live feed from his home In Guernsey......"

Yes, this. And it happens again and again.

Very similar to the attempt to "balance" reporting on climate change up until fairly recently. Any expert representing the vast majority of those in their field is counterbalanced by someone given equal time to present the opposite view, even if they have no backing whatsoever amongst their peers.

Valentine2 · 16/10/2016 13:35

Sorry if it sounds too naive but is there no way to bring any of these liars/manipulators to court somehow?? They have divided a country and caused massive damage to our economy and international standing/reputation already. Surely this amounts to treason? Angry

HesterThrale · 16/10/2016 14:40

Valentine2 there was a petition that asked the police to bring Nigel Farage to court for incitement to racial and religious hatred. The police initially rejected the case but if you read last month's update here, it seems that following the discovery of fresh evidence, the case has been referred to the CPS.

www.change.org/p/prosecute-nigel-farage-for-inciting-racial-and-religious-hatred/u/17824010

FrackingWeekend · 16/10/2016 14:41

Re Tusk stating a50 not irreversible. If submission is delayed then 2 years won't be up by time of GE. First indications of behind the scenes positioning. Any connection?

jaws5 · 16/10/2016 15:15

If there's leadership challenge and GE (it makes sense), will that give time to Labour and LibDems to get their act together or will Tories have victory on a plate? Corbyn is as ineffectual as before although the Commons debate last week did show some signs of life. What does everyone here think?

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 16/10/2016 15:18

If there's leadership challenge and GE (it makes sense), will that give time to Labour and LibDems to get their act together or will Tories have victory on a plate? Corbyn is as ineffectual as before although the Commons debate last week did show some signs of life. What does everyone think?

No.

RedToothBrush · 16/10/2016 15:21

Forgot to say something important about the Johnston story that is also interesting.

I think I said when I saw that another Sun editorial about the child abuse inquiry and how it should be dropped because 'its scope was too wide and it was unmanageable' it was potentially a sign of Murdoch pulling support for May as it was her who set it up and this calls her judgement hugely into account.

Then do you remember that the Sun on Sunday and the Sunday Times editorial came out for retaining the single market? Murdoch clearly is not on board with the idea of Hard Brexit.

So we now have a third instance where Murdoch's position on support for May is starting to look shaky with Johnson's article gets revealed by The Times.

For the Conservative leadership, Murdoch was in favour of May, but only after it was clear the alternatives were either tainted (Gove), compromised (Crabb), completely bloody useless (Leadsom) or called Liam Fox. Murdoch is supposed to be friendly with May, but May was much more on the same page as Dacre at the Mail. The leadership was very much a battle between Banks, Dacre and Murdoch.

Of course it was The Times, though, that was effectively the 'Queenmaker' with the Leadsom 'as a mother' interview.

You've now got a situation where the Mail and Express want Hard Brexit and the language they are using is very, very anti immigration whereas the Murdoch position is much less hard line.

Is there another media battle going on - which is part of the reason that the Mail and Express have taken such an aggressive line? I'm really starting to wonder if things are going on unseen.

After three times that The Times seems to have undermined May, I would conclude that they are either firing off warning shots or they are moving to build up a situation which makes it impossible for her. (Which maybe the Mail and Express are moving to try and defend against).

The question is really whether Murdoch is now still supporting May at all, or whether support is switching to Johnson?

Chances of a General Election? Difficult to put a estimate on it but I would say medium chance at this stage. I don't think its necessarily in May's hands anymore. It depends on how the party itself handle it - if she is faced with a situation where she is likely to face a no confidence vote or whether she stepped down and lets the party deal with it internally (as they did when Cameron took over). I can't see her doing that.

All the main parties are expecting an election though, and are preparing for one so its a very realistic scenario.

And if Murdoch has indeed pulled support? I'd say the chances are potentially higher and we will start to see an increasing anti-May line from The Sun and The Times...

The thing to look out for is a definite shift in The Sun's position (rather than The Times which has generally been more Remain than Brexit in the first place) but I do think there is now momentum growing in that direction.

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birdybirdywoofwoof · 16/10/2016 15:29

I know a couple of sun workers- they have all been waiting for years for Boris to be pm.
The times was not pro-brexit, the sun was, however when brexit won Everyone at the sun was in absolute shock apparently - like Boris they didn't believe it would happen (nor want?)

jaws5 · 16/10/2016 15:40

All fascinating stuff, really. The prospect of BJ as PM is quite surreal though!

jaws5 · 16/10/2016 15:42

Chardonnay it wasn't a yes or no question, so what does no mean?.... Hmm

birdybirdywoofwoof · 16/10/2016 15:44

I've never really got why they were so keen other than he is a gift to headline writers and cartoonists.

I think the media expected a close vote- then bj would move into pole position both taking the euro sceptic tories ukip fringe with him and able to get good concessions from the Eu. Win-win.

However, they all under (or over) estimated the British public!

jaws5 · 16/10/2016 15:50

BJ is a celebrity politician, in the European and American press he is seen as, and plays the part of, British upper class eccentricity very well, but we now know that he takes himself much more seriously than that.

FrackingWeekend · 16/10/2016 16:00

BJ is one of the few WM politicians that is palatable to the north and to much of the 'ordinary vote'.