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Brexit

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.

997 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 15:39

There is no plan. Or is there?

We’ve talked on the last thread about how it’s being set up as ‘Hard Brexit’ or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ (dubbed here as the ‘Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan’) by the hard line Brexiteers either as the plan or the means by which to force a softer deal with the EU (which perhaps seems to be preferred choice of Mrs May herself).

The last few weeks have been plagued by comments by various members of the Cabinet over what Brexit means – comments which are frankly bollocks and show an outstanding world class level of ignorance – and have led to us being laughed at (Verhofstadt head of EU negotiations), facing outright anger and demands for compensation (Japan) and pure bewilderment (USA unless your name is Donald).

And they have been repeated contradicted and undermined by May in response with, the response that this is not government policy and she will not be giving a running commentary.

Thus making the UK look like the world’s leading political basket case whilst at the same time being ‘an excellent place to make new investment in’. Obviously. As long as you prattle the words ‘Free Trade’ a lot a bright new world of opportunity will open up. Just look at the Japanese position on that.

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But really the reason why ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is still so vague, could be a legal one.

The next step in the Battle for Brexit, is in the courts and over whether the Royal Prerogative can be used to trigger a50 or whether May will have to first pass it through Parliament before she can notify the EU that we are leaving. This may prove to be a big hurdle for the government and one they have a real chance of losing particular the NI case.

The two big a50 challenges (though there are others) come from a cross party NI challenge supported by the NI Attorney General in Belfast and a crowdfunded ‘People’s challenge’ in the English courts. The NI challenge is characterised by a loss of rights and the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement, whilst the English challenge includes this as well as other acquired rights and concerns over the devolved assemblies and the Act of Union.

The government’s defence to this, which they sought a bizarre court order to protect and keep secret which was later overturned, is that ministers have better expertise to implement the start of Brexit than the courts (see Johnson, Fox and Davies), that it does not fall under parliament’s jurisdiction and that whilst the Royal Prerogative can’t be used to remove rights, because ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is so vague it’s impossible to challenge use of the Royal Prerogative because we don’t know precisely which rights will be affected!

The case for the government is also being presented by a relatively inexperienced lawyer.

However, some very respected constitutional law academics think the core of the government’s argument is sound, though this might be lost in the ridiculous other defences, the government have put along it. Their lead of the defence is a lawyer, who has little public law experience too.
The government need to win both these big cases, to ensure that they can use the Royal Prerogative. Don’t forget the likelihood of appeals regardless of the first ruling too.

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Into the political void the Irish PM has stepped in to led discussions into the future of the island, the Japanese have issued a Brexit ‘wish list, the Spanish have staked a claim to co-sovereignty of Gibraltar (something rejected overwhelming in a referendum in 2002) and threatened to block negotiations otherwise, a French Presidential hopeless has kindly offered us another referendum, the USA have reiterated that they won’t do a deal with us until our WTO status is in good order and the Italians have said ‘No chance!’. This is the UK taking back control folks.

At home Ken Clarke has said that May needs to get her act together, George Osborne has said Brexit did not mean hard Brexit and Dominic Grieve has urged her not to sleepwalk into a hard Brexit. The Tory conference looks set for all out Tory War.

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In a side issue the pro-Brexit newspaper, The Sun has come out in an editorial telling the Government to have the courage to pull the plug on the child sex abuse inquiry which was set up by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, calling it a ‘farce’ and saying its scope was too wide and unmanageable… It might seem unrelated, but it calls May’s judgment and handling of large issues into question. If she allows it to plow on, it could turn into an even bigger farce and embarrassment, yet if she U-Turns it could make her look weak and have the potential to do the same over Brexit. She’ll struggle to throw Amber Rudd under the bus over the matter, because most of this happened on her watch. This will come back to haunt May. It also starts to question Murdoch’s position and opinion of May. Is this a withdrawal of support for her?

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In summary, the next six to eight weeks are crucial to what Brexit looks like. It’s time for the shit to start hitting the fan. Brace yourselves for next couple of weeks. Get stocked up on the gin

We are not being led by UK politics anymore nor even internal squabbles really but the courts and outside forces which are shaping what is possible and achievable rather than what we want.

All talk is of a hard Brexit. It might well prove to be the case yet. We aren’t there yet though. There could be some more twists and turns yet.

An article 50 defeat in the courts for the government throws it back to Parliamentary scrutiny, taking up time and potentially watering down demands. It could even produce the result that a50 is deemed not fit for purpose and we have to go back to the EU begging for a new treaty for a way out (which technically they would have to do as they legally have to recognise democratic votes). This might be our only way to prevent a chaotic exit from the EU. This might led not to an exit though, but a two tier EU – a proposal suggested by, errrr Guy Verhofstadt, Head of EU Negotiations – and is very unlikely to prove to be the quick exit by 2020 that Kippers so desperately want. And a second referendum on the deal reached, in order to prove it was the will of the people. It could also prove a threat to the current government and raise the realistic spectre of a rebellion and a vote of no confidence and in turn a General Election.

Of course the EU themselves have a couple of their own headaches at the polls to survive too, whilst the German banks start to get the jitters. And there is the small matter of America having their own Brain Fart in the coming months, which could have a big impact on what happens next.

Yep, this is taking back control folks. What do you mean it feels more like a game of roulette? So might even say Russian roulette.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
CeciledeVolanges · 12/10/2016 14:29

Kaija the problem he has is that people keep using language to point out problems.

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 14:32

Liam Gallagher ‏@LiamGall1983
@IanDunt fair play. I've had nightmares where I'm told to give a speech with no idea about what I'm gonna say. He's living it

Stephen Gethins SNP now speaking.

www.theguardian.com/media/2016/oct/12/daily-mail-bremoaners-brexit-mps-cbi-bbc-paul-dacre?CMP=twt_gu
Daily Mail's attack on 'Bremoaners' reflects editor's Brexit fears

www.independent.co.uk/voices/daily-mail-brexit-daily-express-the-sun-tabloids-language-political-intolerance-traitors-a7357591.html
After Brexit, our tabloid newspapers are taking political intolerance to a chilling new extreme

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HPFA · 12/10/2016 14:32

www.independent.co.uk/voices/daily-mail-brexit-daily-express-the-sun-tabloids-language-political-intolerance-traitors-a7357591.html

I'm not the only one who found the articles in Mail and Express disturbing.

GreenandWhite · 12/10/2016 14:46

HPFA that's a very interesting article:
C&P:

These newspapers and their commentators are implying that those who disagree with them should be silenced, locked up even. That we are traitors.

The Mail and the Express seem to have decided they simply do not recognise the legitimacy of people who have a different political position.

These newspapers preen themselves as champions of free speech and traditional British liberties. Yet they are seeking to delegitimise contrary political views, to silence them through intimidation and the implied threat of violence.

How very democratic.

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 14:49

Michael Crick ‏@MichaelLCrick
Ukip MEP Lord Dartmouth issues statement dis-associating himself from Nigel Farage's defence of Trump's "outrageous and shocking remarks"

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/12/pmqs-shows-theresa-may-is-in-far-bigger-trouble-than-she-rea

www.aol.co.uk/news/2016/10/12/theresa-may-signals-further-doubts-over-single-market-membership/

Not a good afternoon for the Government.

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
Stephen Gethins, SNP Brexit spokesperson to Davis: "This is not like buying a house"" about jobs, livelihoods etc...

Rob Merrick ‏@Rob_Merrick
Ken Clarke starts his speech: "Sadly I wasn't able to attend the Conservative party conference this year"....loving it already

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
"No Brexiteer at the moment is able to name any important rule they want to change." (Clarke)

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
Redwood gets up to say how urgently we need to change the common fisheries policy. Amazing. Great reason to risk our living standards.

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
Clarke: statements on FoM & ECJ announced as gov policy w/out any debate in parly or Cabinet. "It wasn't a very good start, in my opinion." These statements made it "perfectly clear" we we're leaving single market and customs union.

Ripping them to shreds.

Clarke: These issues were not addressed by the referendum. Both sides disgraceful. Scare stories got more press than firm plans for alternatives to the EU. I have never disagreed with my euroskeptic friends (con) over trade before. No mandate to pull out of Single Market at all.

David Allen Green ‏@DavidAllenGreen
Ken Clarke: May's Tory party conference statements on Article 50 and Brexit made without cabinet let alone parliamentary approval.

Go GO GO KEN!

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
Clarke: "the reaction in the markets is only too obvious. Pound has devalued to an extent that would have been regarded a crisis in my time" Clarke: "anyone who thinks devaluation is just a good thing, i disagree. have now devalued by 40% and we have biggest CA deficit in history"

Welcomes Governments amendment - did not expect it. Said he would have voted for opposition's motion.

Nailed it.

Miliband up now.

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ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 12/10/2016 14:51

I don't think Theresa May, Boris and DD have what it takes to navigate this mess.

They seem to care more about their party and their own position, same as Cameron.

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 14:57

Miliband - we need to work to consensus. Up to all of us.

Takes a swipe at Mail and Express.

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
"The humility of those who lost should be matched by the magnanimity of those who won," says Ed Miliband

Taking on the four reasons:

  1. we've had a referendum. Not enough too many questions - no mandate
  2. executive power argument Davis comments in 1999 about need to control executive
  3. need for secrecy balony - it will leak. we all know this. parliament will read it in the press.
  4. the great repeal bill red herring entrenches EU law into british law.

don't stack up

Says the gov position seems to be immigration first then economy, but it should be the other way round.

Other reason is the government don't like the answer they will get the here from the house.

"well that is tough, they need it"

Ian Lucas Lab suggests another alternative - the cabinet can't argue themselves

Miliband: It goes so far beyond party politics and leave or remain and our tenure here.

This is good speech.

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TheForeignOffice · 12/10/2016 15:00

I have an enormous amount of respect, admiration and affection for Ken Clarke. He's a true statesman.

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 15:03

Faisal Islam
Dominic Grieve: "my duty to my constituents transcends duty to my party" on this issue, as it will be important for decades
In response to Miliband - con supporting lab.

Bill Cash and Nicky Morgan arguing over what the Tory Manifesto says. Bill Cash says its quiet clear. If it is, why are they arguing over it??!

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RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 15:11

This has been a very adult debate. Very little of the usual political hoooharrring on party lines that people dislike so much.

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
Grieve: "Norway is part of the Single Market without being members of the EU. This destroys your argument". Cash refers to "weasel words"
Blue on blue.

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
Dromey: Cash "accused us of being disingenuous- constituency is home to Jaguar consequences of leaving single mkt could be v serious indeed"

Bill Cash is an arse.

Jonathan Deighton ‏@JonDeighton
@DavidAllenGreen She was a lone wolf home secretary, which was acceptable. Now she wants to be a lone wolf PM, which most definitely isn't.

Cleggy up.

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ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 12/10/2016 15:12

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/12/german-government-approves-bill-to-stop-eu-migrants-claiming-benefits

Isn't this that played a big role in Brexit ? How come Germany can do it now and we were told "No"?

What am I missing?

Nightofthetentacle · 12/10/2016 15:13

I'd like to go for a pint with Ken Clarke and Dominic Grieve.

What with Keir Starmer seeming like a (v) competent opposition, and a decent amount of challenge in parliament, I am feeling far less terrified about the future than at the start of the week.

Thanks so much for this thread, Red and all who contribute (I'm refreshing it surreptitiously at a work event at the mo).

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 15:18

Clegg: Euroskeptics married the HoC with hatred for Brussels. Now they are not standing up for it.

Reinventing history. The referendum was an overwhelming victory apart from those liberal elites. This dictionary definition does not match.

Now the government has a telepathic ability to decide what 17million mean and every on mass voted for the same thing. When they themselves can not even define Brexit.

Says the Brexiteers cynically withheld definition before ref because they couldn't agree.

Now the government cast aspersions on 16 million people. Says that anyone who believes in British internationalism is a citizen of nowhere - this is unacceptable.

Says that his personal unpopular opinion with intelligent diplomacy that we could stay in EU and get what we want but he understands its only his personal opinion.

Clegg doing well praising John Major.

Pound still going south.

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RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 15:21

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe, we were offered that deal. It was the one Cameron got if he won the referendum. The one the UK rejected.

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ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 12/10/2016 15:23

Oh. Sorry. So it was.

GloriaGaynor · 12/10/2016 15:25

The DM covered the German benefits story last week.

It's really annoying because that may actually have saved us.

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 15:26

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
Clegg now citing vote & debate on 20th Nov 1991 when John Major sought advanced mandate for EU negotiations - says Govt not brave enough

John Redwood makes fairly reasonable (!) point in saying the issue of single market central to remain fears and this is what the house needs to focus on.

He's now droning on, and I'm unintentionally tuning out.

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
Confirmed - still Government position there will be no pre A50 vote and no green paper - Eustice referring to other bills post repeal bill

Of course Eustice was...

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ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 12/10/2016 15:27

Should have read the Mail then.

Now that's something I never thought I'll write on MN.
Grin

Unicornsarelovely · 12/10/2016 15:29

The benefits for migrants thing is another example of the Government's own policy cock up being blamed on the EU.

As I understand it, the general principle in the EU is that you are entitled to the same benefits as nationals of that country on the same basis as the nationals of that country. So e.g. in Spain, where you are entitled to benefits on proof of identity registered at the local town hall on one particular day per month between set hours. Other countries have different tiers of payment depending on previous employment so effectively - you have to have previous employment to get benefits.

It is more an example of the way our benefits system works - flat rate benefits, no preconditions, no lengthy wait for all claimants, we just have to apply the rules consistently.

TheBathroomSink · 12/10/2016 15:30

Redwood was on Newsnight last night being incredibly condescending and said quite clearly that he was utterly against remaining in the single market, and any attempts to pay the EU any money in any way, shape or form were an attempt to circumvent the leave vote.

GloriaGaynor · 12/10/2016 15:30

It's 5 rather than 4 years that Cameron got, and the problem with it was that Brexiteers believed that the EU would vote it down.

Whereas in Germany - it's a government proposal, and they don't seem to have got or needed to get the agreement of the EU. (In fact the EU federal court had ruled that EU migrants should be eligible after 6 months).

HPFA · 12/10/2016 15:31

Night My feeling from the Labour Party at the moment is that they're going to try and ignore Corbyn and McDonnell as much as possible and just develop good policies for the future. Several newspaper articles about how we shouldn't assume Momentum activists are all the same suggests there will be a reaching out especially to younger Momentum members. There are some good young MPs who have kept their noses clean as regards anti-Corbynism but could offer a good altenative when newer activists begin to see sense.
It's a sensible strategy but Corbyn just such an idiot! Angela Rayner actually doing a good job opposing grammar schools but now undermined by the Shami debacle, something that any half-way competent Leader would have spotted.

And this is a brilliant Twitter feed
twitter.com/IanDunt?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

GreenandWhite · 12/10/2016 15:33

"Isn't this that played a big role in Brexit ? How come Germany can do it now and we were told "No"? Bloody good question Sad

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 12/10/2016 15:33

So then, why doesn't the German Government need the agreement of the EU?

I'll be off reading the German papers, haven't done in a while.

GloriaGaynor · 12/10/2016 15:34

But in this case Unicorns the law isn't the same for EU citizens as for German nationals...

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