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Brexit

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.

997 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 15:39

There is no plan. Or is there?

We’ve talked on the last thread about how it’s being set up as ‘Hard Brexit’ or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ (dubbed here as the ‘Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan’) by the hard line Brexiteers either as the plan or the means by which to force a softer deal with the EU (which perhaps seems to be preferred choice of Mrs May herself).

The last few weeks have been plagued by comments by various members of the Cabinet over what Brexit means – comments which are frankly bollocks and show an outstanding world class level of ignorance – and have led to us being laughed at (Verhofstadt head of EU negotiations), facing outright anger and demands for compensation (Japan) and pure bewilderment (USA unless your name is Donald).

And they have been repeated contradicted and undermined by May in response with, the response that this is not government policy and she will not be giving a running commentary.

Thus making the UK look like the world’s leading political basket case whilst at the same time being ‘an excellent place to make new investment in’. Obviously. As long as you prattle the words ‘Free Trade’ a lot a bright new world of opportunity will open up. Just look at the Japanese position on that.

-------------------

But really the reason why ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is still so vague, could be a legal one.

The next step in the Battle for Brexit, is in the courts and over whether the Royal Prerogative can be used to trigger a50 or whether May will have to first pass it through Parliament before she can notify the EU that we are leaving. This may prove to be a big hurdle for the government and one they have a real chance of losing particular the NI case.

The two big a50 challenges (though there are others) come from a cross party NI challenge supported by the NI Attorney General in Belfast and a crowdfunded ‘People’s challenge’ in the English courts. The NI challenge is characterised by a loss of rights and the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement, whilst the English challenge includes this as well as other acquired rights and concerns over the devolved assemblies and the Act of Union.

The government’s defence to this, which they sought a bizarre court order to protect and keep secret which was later overturned, is that ministers have better expertise to implement the start of Brexit than the courts (see Johnson, Fox and Davies), that it does not fall under parliament’s jurisdiction and that whilst the Royal Prerogative can’t be used to remove rights, because ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is so vague it’s impossible to challenge use of the Royal Prerogative because we don’t know precisely which rights will be affected!

The case for the government is also being presented by a relatively inexperienced lawyer.

However, some very respected constitutional law academics think the core of the government’s argument is sound, though this might be lost in the ridiculous other defences, the government have put along it. Their lead of the defence is a lawyer, who has little public law experience too.
The government need to win both these big cases, to ensure that they can use the Royal Prerogative. Don’t forget the likelihood of appeals regardless of the first ruling too.

-------------------

Into the political void the Irish PM has stepped in to led discussions into the future of the island, the Japanese have issued a Brexit ‘wish list, the Spanish have staked a claim to co-sovereignty of Gibraltar (something rejected overwhelming in a referendum in 2002) and threatened to block negotiations otherwise, a French Presidential hopeless has kindly offered us another referendum, the USA have reiterated that they won’t do a deal with us until our WTO status is in good order and the Italians have said ‘No chance!’. This is the UK taking back control folks.

At home Ken Clarke has said that May needs to get her act together, George Osborne has said Brexit did not mean hard Brexit and Dominic Grieve has urged her not to sleepwalk into a hard Brexit. The Tory conference looks set for all out Tory War.

-------------------

In a side issue the pro-Brexit newspaper, The Sun has come out in an editorial telling the Government to have the courage to pull the plug on the child sex abuse inquiry which was set up by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, calling it a ‘farce’ and saying its scope was too wide and unmanageable… It might seem unrelated, but it calls May’s judgment and handling of large issues into question. If she allows it to plow on, it could turn into an even bigger farce and embarrassment, yet if she U-Turns it could make her look weak and have the potential to do the same over Brexit. She’ll struggle to throw Amber Rudd under the bus over the matter, because most of this happened on her watch. This will come back to haunt May. It also starts to question Murdoch’s position and opinion of May. Is this a withdrawal of support for her?

-------------------

In summary, the next six to eight weeks are crucial to what Brexit looks like. It’s time for the shit to start hitting the fan. Brace yourselves for next couple of weeks. Get stocked up on the gin

We are not being led by UK politics anymore nor even internal squabbles really but the courts and outside forces which are shaping what is possible and achievable rather than what we want.

All talk is of a hard Brexit. It might well prove to be the case yet. We aren’t there yet though. There could be some more twists and turns yet.

An article 50 defeat in the courts for the government throws it back to Parliamentary scrutiny, taking up time and potentially watering down demands. It could even produce the result that a50 is deemed not fit for purpose and we have to go back to the EU begging for a new treaty for a way out (which technically they would have to do as they legally have to recognise democratic votes). This might be our only way to prevent a chaotic exit from the EU. This might led not to an exit though, but a two tier EU – a proposal suggested by, errrr Guy Verhofstadt, Head of EU Negotiations – and is very unlikely to prove to be the quick exit by 2020 that Kippers so desperately want. And a second referendum on the deal reached, in order to prove it was the will of the people. It could also prove a threat to the current government and raise the realistic spectre of a rebellion and a vote of no confidence and in turn a General Election.

Of course the EU themselves have a couple of their own headaches at the polls to survive too, whilst the German banks start to get the jitters. And there is the small matter of America having their own Brain Fart in the coming months, which could have a big impact on what happens next.

Yep, this is taking back control folks. What do you mean it feels more like a game of roulette? So might even say Russian roulette.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
hotmail124 · 11/10/2016 20:55

looks like a very british coup

LotisBlue · 11/10/2016 21:06

Re. Showing of passports to access maternity care: I was actually asked to show mine at booking in around 18 months ago. I never did and it wasn't mentioned again. I don't think denying women and babies medical care is ever OK, whatever their immigration status.

RedToothBrush · 11/10/2016 21:10

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/11/did-we-reclaim-sovereignty-from-brussels-only-to-ignore-parliame/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Did we reclaim sovereignty from Brussels only to ignore Parliament? That really is the way to dictatorship
Telegraph article written by the paper's assistant editor and leader writer. Leave Voter.

I'm thinking, moves like the government has made to scupper the Opposition debate tomorrow, aren't exactly going to help that sentiment are they?

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/11/government-adviser-leaving-eu-customs-union-uk-25bn?CMP=twt_gu
The British economy will be hit by a “permanent cost” of more than £25bn if it decides to withdraw from the EU customs union, the government’s new key adviser on Brexit has admitted.

Raoul Ruparel, who has been hired by David Davis to provide expertise on the process of leaving the EU, said he believed there was no question over the UK staying inside Europe’s free trade bloc.

But he admitted that leaving the customs union, inside which EU countries negotiate trade deals collectively and set common external tariffs, would reduce GDP by between 1 and 1.2% in the long term.

Just to remind you. The cost of the EU per year is £8bn.

Why hire this guy if he is indeed part of 'Project Fear'? You hire him because you think he's good and knows his stuff...

OP posts:
Peregrina · 11/10/2016 21:22

I think that amendment shows just how scared the Government is of presenting a proper case - so pass the legislation by perogative, wrapped up in weasel words of respecting the wishes of the electorate.

Never mind May, in the same way that Cameron has gone down in history as a fool who called an unnecessary Referedum and caused turmoil in the country, you will go down in history as the one who broke the country.

RedToothBrush · 11/10/2016 21:36

Also in that last Guardian article it says:

It comes as the government is accused of trying to avoid scrutiny of its Brexit strategy by creating a Parliamentary committee that is too big to do its job properly.

Under a plan to be unveiled on Wednesday, 21 MPs will sit on the new cross-party Brexit select committee.

The committee will be almost double the size of almost every other Commons select committee following a deal struck between Conservative and Labour whips.

But some senior MPs have claimed that the committee has been made deliberately large so that it is less effective at scrutinising the government’s strategy and less able to reach a consensus.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/11/ex-minister-francis-maude-takes-brexit-advisory-job-at-law-firm
The Brexit Industry is great if you've had a career at Whitehall.

The former cabinet minister Francis Maude has taken a job advising an international law firm on Britain’s exit from the EU, six months after standing down from government.

and

Last month it emerged that the former foreign secretary William Hague had been appointed to the “Brexit client transition unit” at the consultancy Teneo, whose clients include HSBC, Coca-Cola and Nissan.

OliveClough @CloughOlive
Today's Irish budget includes new funds for 'Scientist Refugees' escaping #Brexit Britain
www.irishtimes.com/news/science/budget-2017-more-allocated-for-scientific-and-humanities-research-1.2825860

A 37 per cent increase in the Programme for Research in Third Level Institutions budget brings its spend during 2017 to €14.2 million.

The Council welcomed the funding which will allow it to open up a new frontiers research programme. It will also have funds for an initiative to attract scientists from Britain who are affected by Brexit.

www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/border-controls-inevitable-post-brexit-says-former-psni-chief-1.2826020
Border controls in Ireland inevitable says former chief constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland

On the Opposition Debate amendment:
Dan Bloom ‏@danbloom1
No10 denies climbdown. But Labour source says: "It's clear they were in real trouble and didn't have the votes to defeat it."

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 11/10/2016 21:48

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/michael-gove-rupert-murdoch-ian-hislop-relationship-times-private-eye-a7356466.html
Ian Hislop appears in front of a Commons Select Committee and says that Mr Gove should be investigated over his relationship with Rupert Murdoch.

Hehehehe.

YES DO IT.

More on the opposition debate story:
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/theresa-brexit-one-hell-climbdown-9026272?service=responsive#ICID=sharebar_twitter

OP posts:
TheNorthRemembers · 11/10/2016 22:18

What I do not understanding about this debacle about border controls is this. We have voted to take back control (well, I did not, but nevermind). And now we are banging the table about keeping our borders in Ireland and Calais (while badmouthing the French police at every turn).

Mind you if they really have to draft in HMRC staff from Newcastle to man the Heathrow border control www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/11/take-back-control-border-force-lax-security, you can see why that is an attractive idea.

I always thought the Tories had a great respect for Parliament. What is happening to them?!

RedToothBrush · 11/10/2016 22:32

<a class="break-all" href="http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/unequal-political-rights-the-case-for-immigrant-suffrage-in-the-uk/blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/unequal-political-rights-the-case-for-immigrant-suffrage-in-the-uk/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/unequal-political-rights-the-case-for-immigrant-suffrage-in-the-uk/blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/unequal-political-rights-the-case-for-immigrant-suffrage-in-the-uk/

I think some of you might appreciate this. The case for 'immigrant suffrage'.

Personally I'm all in favour for anyone who has lived and worked here for a number of years. Especially when people from Commonwealth Countries are allowed to vote here. Its makes no sense to effectively disenfranchise a German but not a Canadian especially when the German can vote in local elections.

The situation we now have is appalling.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 11/10/2016 22:32

<a class="break-all" href="http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/unequal-political-rights-the-case-for-immigrant-suffrage-in-the-uk/blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/unequal-political-rights-the-case-for-immigrant-suffrage-in-the-uk/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/unequal-political-rights-the-case-for-immigrant-suffrage-in-the-uk/blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/unequal-political-rights-the-case-for-immigrant-suffrage-in-the-uk/

I think some of you might appreciate this. The case for 'immigrant suffrage'.

Personally I'm all in favour for anyone who has lived and worked here for a number of years. Especially when people from Commonwealth Countries are allowed to vote here. Its makes no sense to effectively disenfranchise a German but not a Canadian especially when the German can vote in local elections.

The situation we now have is appalling.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 11/10/2016 22:33

blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/unequal-political-rights-the-case-for-immigrant-suffrage-in-the-uk/

Link fail. This one should work.

OP posts:
HesterThrale · 11/10/2016 22:49

Hmmm... Re Farage, Murdoch and Trump. Unholy triumvirate, with probably more connections than we know.
I remember 2 days after the referendum seeing on the news that Trump was at his golf course in Scotland, then Murdoch turned up in his helicopter to make a social call. I felt chilled at that sight. You can imagine the conversation.
'Oh yes Donald, let me advise you how you can get the public to vote the way you want, using the media. I just did it.' Money, media, power: another unhealthy trio.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3660027/Look-s-coming-dinner-Trump-dines-Rupert-Murdoch-wife-Jerry-Hall-posh-Scottish-golf-course-meal-s-house-Donald-owns-place.html

RedToothBrush · 11/10/2016 22:49

Rafael Behr @rafaelbehr
Meanwhile, in a quiet corner of the Cabinet Office, things are turning a bit Norwegian all of a sudden ...

Ian Katz @iankatz1000
#Newsnight has learned UK govt may be prepared to continue paying billions to Europe to retain access to markets and other rights

I'm not sure whether to piss myself laughing at this or not!

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 11/10/2016 23:10

David Allen Green retweeting a post from a couple of weeks ago:
David Allen Green ‏@DavidAllenGreen
BEANO

Brexit existing as name only

Same contributions; free movement; same laws...

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
"massive Government u-turn" one Conservative MP tells me of the surprise last minute amendment to Labour motion.

press.labour.org.uk/post/151675316314/government-accept-labours-call-for-proper
Labour Press Release on the Opposite Debate

Keir Starmer ‏@Keir_Starmer
Govt accepts Labours demand for proper scrutiny of Brexit plans. Welcome victory ahead of Commons debate tomorrow: democratic grip essential

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37622928
Labour renews pressure for Brexit vote with 170 questions ahead of its debate tomorrow. This is one for every day before the end of March.
Keir Starmer HAS been busy! Davis will be cursing!

Damn these Human Rights Lawyers. Remind me never to piss one off!

Ok now I'm amused.

Daily Express Front Page:
Time to silence EU Exit Whingers: Forget arrogant Remainers... we must slash ties with Brussels NOW.

Daily Mail Front Page:
Damn the unpatriotic Bremoaners and their plot to subvert the will of the British people: Daily Mail Comment.

Much love for Democracy from the Right Wing Press.

From the express article.
Pressure is mounting on the Government to deliver a quick Brexit and defy doubters seeking to delay or halt the process.

The group Leave means Leave says preparations to quit Europe should be speeded up in the face of stalling attempts and aggressive tactics from Brussels.

They urged ministers to go on the attack and spell out the harm Britain can do to the EU economy if its leaders try to punish us in a policy dubbed the "Empire Strikes Back".

Oh.My.God. That is too funny!!!

  1. The pressure is not from Brussels. Its from Labour and Tory Back Benchers and the state of the pound.
  2. The PM couldn't leave tomorrow even if she wanted as she has not got the legal authority to do so. Its the entire reason a50 is in the courts
  3. The Empire were the bad guys in Star Wars. They lost.
OP posts:
CeciledeVolanges · 11/10/2016 23:17

Red I am so glad not to have been the only one to have started cheering to myself and shouting "yes!" at irregular intervals interspersed with covering my face since the referendum... at least online.

CeciledeVolanges · 11/10/2016 23:20

Although the irony of that Mail front page, with the "subvert the will of the people" comment superposed on "May says she will ignore people and go ahead regardless" headlines

jaws5 · 11/10/2016 23:20

They're shitting themselves, it seems... reality bites...

RedToothBrush · 11/10/2016 23:25

You either laugh at the bits you can or you'd be out trying to put the noose up.

Steve Peers is on form with Empire Strikes Back jokes.

Steve Peers ‏@StevePeers
Liberal Leavers: "Lord Brexit, have you considered Flexcit?"

Lord Brexit: "I find your lack of faith disturbing"

James Rhodes @rh0desy
fear leads to anger
anger leads to hate
hate leads to suffering

- Yoda

Post-Fact politics - Jedi Mind Trick used by the Dark Side.

OP posts:
smallfox2002 · 11/10/2016 23:38

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/11/we-voted-brexit-keep-parliament-sovereign-wont-be-gagged

There, a brexit voter I can support .

Vaugely know Steve having met him at a few friends things, nice guy, VERY clever, the youngest ever QC in his chambers apparently.

RedToothBrush · 11/10/2016 23:45

Article from PoliticsHome 5th October
www.politicshome.com/news/europe/eu-policy-agenda/brexit/news/79594/uk-has-four-brexit-red-lines-says-david-davis-aide
Stewart Jackson, Brexit Secretary David Davis’ parliamentary private secretary, said the Government has outlined central planks on which it will not compromise going intonegotiations.

They are anend to the free movement of people, making laws in Westminster, freedom from the jurisdiction of European judges and no more payments to theEU coffers.

Ian Katz ‏@iankatz1000
David Davis clear last week that stopping contributions to EU was #Brexit red line...No 10 message rather different

How many more apparent U-Turns or contradictions? We've had what 3 or 4 since the ConKip Conference now. Brexit really is about what is most politically acceptable at home.

Why DO the Mail and Express want to shut people up?

OP posts:
CeciledeVolanges · 11/10/2016 23:50

Well, I don't know what they think has been happening in Westminster for the past forty years or so :S and the volume of lawmaking is already such that the vast proportion of it is actually made in Whitehall, and that proportion will only increase exponentially post-Brexit...

HPFA · 12/10/2016 06:38

Lordrothermere - haven't done any actual Door Knocking but leaflets I've been delivering have been focussed on local issues and Council cuts. Tim Farron has visited three times and Paddy Ashdown once so they are certainly fighting hard - 400 volunteers turned up on Saturday.

MirabelleTree · 12/10/2016 06:48

I decided to see to look the Mail and Express headlines and noticed in the Mail there is some annoyance on the number of euros holiday makers getting for their pound, notably 0.88 at Southampton airport. Apparently the poor staff at the money exchange places have been on the receiving end of a lot of anger since the referendum.

HPFA · 12/10/2016 06:51

Anyone posted this on yet?

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/11/david-davis-accuses-treasury-officials-of-trying-to-undermine-br/

Mirabelle -that's hysterical

MirabelleTree · 12/10/2016 06:51

The Sun are complaining too - 'EUR having a laugh'.