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Brexit

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.

997 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 15:39

There is no plan. Or is there?

We’ve talked on the last thread about how it’s being set up as ‘Hard Brexit’ or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ (dubbed here as the ‘Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan’) by the hard line Brexiteers either as the plan or the means by which to force a softer deal with the EU (which perhaps seems to be preferred choice of Mrs May herself).

The last few weeks have been plagued by comments by various members of the Cabinet over what Brexit means – comments which are frankly bollocks and show an outstanding world class level of ignorance – and have led to us being laughed at (Verhofstadt head of EU negotiations), facing outright anger and demands for compensation (Japan) and pure bewilderment (USA unless your name is Donald).

And they have been repeated contradicted and undermined by May in response with, the response that this is not government policy and she will not be giving a running commentary.

Thus making the UK look like the world’s leading political basket case whilst at the same time being ‘an excellent place to make new investment in’. Obviously. As long as you prattle the words ‘Free Trade’ a lot a bright new world of opportunity will open up. Just look at the Japanese position on that.

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But really the reason why ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is still so vague, could be a legal one.

The next step in the Battle for Brexit, is in the courts and over whether the Royal Prerogative can be used to trigger a50 or whether May will have to first pass it through Parliament before she can notify the EU that we are leaving. This may prove to be a big hurdle for the government and one they have a real chance of losing particular the NI case.

The two big a50 challenges (though there are others) come from a cross party NI challenge supported by the NI Attorney General in Belfast and a crowdfunded ‘People’s challenge’ in the English courts. The NI challenge is characterised by a loss of rights and the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement, whilst the English challenge includes this as well as other acquired rights and concerns over the devolved assemblies and the Act of Union.

The government’s defence to this, which they sought a bizarre court order to protect and keep secret which was later overturned, is that ministers have better expertise to implement the start of Brexit than the courts (see Johnson, Fox and Davies), that it does not fall under parliament’s jurisdiction and that whilst the Royal Prerogative can’t be used to remove rights, because ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is so vague it’s impossible to challenge use of the Royal Prerogative because we don’t know precisely which rights will be affected!

The case for the government is also being presented by a relatively inexperienced lawyer.

However, some very respected constitutional law academics think the core of the government’s argument is sound, though this might be lost in the ridiculous other defences, the government have put along it. Their lead of the defence is a lawyer, who has little public law experience too.
The government need to win both these big cases, to ensure that they can use the Royal Prerogative. Don’t forget the likelihood of appeals regardless of the first ruling too.

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Into the political void the Irish PM has stepped in to led discussions into the future of the island, the Japanese have issued a Brexit ‘wish list, the Spanish have staked a claim to co-sovereignty of Gibraltar (something rejected overwhelming in a referendum in 2002) and threatened to block negotiations otherwise, a French Presidential hopeless has kindly offered us another referendum, the USA have reiterated that they won’t do a deal with us until our WTO status is in good order and the Italians have said ‘No chance!’. This is the UK taking back control folks.

At home Ken Clarke has said that May needs to get her act together, George Osborne has said Brexit did not mean hard Brexit and Dominic Grieve has urged her not to sleepwalk into a hard Brexit. The Tory conference looks set for all out Tory War.

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In a side issue the pro-Brexit newspaper, The Sun has come out in an editorial telling the Government to have the courage to pull the plug on the child sex abuse inquiry which was set up by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, calling it a ‘farce’ and saying its scope was too wide and unmanageable… It might seem unrelated, but it calls May’s judgment and handling of large issues into question. If she allows it to plow on, it could turn into an even bigger farce and embarrassment, yet if she U-Turns it could make her look weak and have the potential to do the same over Brexit. She’ll struggle to throw Amber Rudd under the bus over the matter, because most of this happened on her watch. This will come back to haunt May. It also starts to question Murdoch’s position and opinion of May. Is this a withdrawal of support for her?

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In summary, the next six to eight weeks are crucial to what Brexit looks like. It’s time for the shit to start hitting the fan. Brace yourselves for next couple of weeks. Get stocked up on the gin

We are not being led by UK politics anymore nor even internal squabbles really but the courts and outside forces which are shaping what is possible and achievable rather than what we want.

All talk is of a hard Brexit. It might well prove to be the case yet. We aren’t there yet though. There could be some more twists and turns yet.

An article 50 defeat in the courts for the government throws it back to Parliamentary scrutiny, taking up time and potentially watering down demands. It could even produce the result that a50 is deemed not fit for purpose and we have to go back to the EU begging for a new treaty for a way out (which technically they would have to do as they legally have to recognise democratic votes). This might be our only way to prevent a chaotic exit from the EU. This might led not to an exit though, but a two tier EU – a proposal suggested by, errrr Guy Verhofstadt, Head of EU Negotiations – and is very unlikely to prove to be the quick exit by 2020 that Kippers so desperately want. And a second referendum on the deal reached, in order to prove it was the will of the people. It could also prove a threat to the current government and raise the realistic spectre of a rebellion and a vote of no confidence and in turn a General Election.

Of course the EU themselves have a couple of their own headaches at the polls to survive too, whilst the German banks start to get the jitters. And there is the small matter of America having their own Brain Fart in the coming months, which could have a big impact on what happens next.

Yep, this is taking back control folks. What do you mean it feels more like a game of roulette? So might even say Russian roulette.

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Thread gallery
29
PattyPenguin · 12/10/2016 07:18

Top headline on BBC news website currently - "UK 'may still have to pay into EU even after Brexit'"
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37627308
(accompanied by a photo of the big red bus and its slogan from the Leave campaign)

GreenandWhite · 12/10/2016 07:19

"DAILY MAIL COMMENT: Whingeing. Contemptuous. Unpatriotic. Damn the Bremoaners and their plot to subvert the will of the British people "

"Ministers' fury at 'unpatriotic' anti-Brexit £66bn cost leak from Treasury: Pro-Leave demand to know why discredited figures are still being used"

Any criticism or questioning of May's Brexit is framed a unpatriotic...

PattyPenguin · 12/10/2016 07:25

Isn't it unpatriotic to moan about getting fewer euros, though? Surely this is part of the short-term pain we have to go through to Get Our Country Back? Grit your teeth, you whingers. Where's your Blitz spirit?

merrymouse · 12/10/2016 07:33

It's just not clear how talking about the single market is subverting the will of the British people.

While there was no question on the ballot paper about the single market, it is clear that 48% of people definitely voted to stay in the single market, and some of the 52% also wanted to stay in the single market, (and that leave leaflet very clearly suggested that Switzerland was a possible model to copy).

That Rhiannon Cosslett tweet about 'hard remain' is so true.

Motheroffourdragons · 12/10/2016 07:40

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Peregrina · 12/10/2016 08:00

Remind yourselves which newspaper printed the Headline 'Hurrah for the Blackshirts'. Remind me which paper's proprietor flew to Germany in 1934 to offer support to Hitler. Then lecture me about Patriotism.

Reflect upon that, especially those of you who voted Leave who say that your vote wasn't about immigration.

Motheroffourdragons · 12/10/2016 08:33

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

GreenandWhite · 12/10/2016 08:43

This talk about a new dawn, a new Great Britain...... empty but effective rhetoric or genuine attempt to cleanse the 'old' Great Britain from undesired elements and policies? I am not at all sure.

I know Putin and trump have been mentioned a lot on these threads in terms of pushing hyper nationalistic agendas but let's not forget Erdogan, he has managed to get his country behind him and created a fascist dictatorship, under the watchful eyes of the world and Turkish educated liberal opposition. Let's see how the elections in France and Germany fare in 2017.

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 10:01

labourlist.org/2016/10/labours-170-questions-for-david-davis-on-brexit/
Labour's 170 questions for David Davis

I haven't read them (yet) but there seems to be quite a bit of praise for them and surprise at the fact they aren't fillers.

More from the Express:
You can sum up in one sentence the disgusting opinions of the rabble of MPs who are demanding a Commons vote on Brexit: "The people have spoken, we don't like what they said because they aren't as clever as us so let's ignore them and try to reverse the referendum result" Such snake-like treachery cannot go unpunished.

Here's what I would do with them: clap them in the Tower of London. They want to imprison us against our will in the EU so we should give them 28 days against their will to reflect on the true meaning of democracy. We're in the midst of an exhilarating people's revolution and those who stand in the way of the popular will must take what's coming to them.

If it wasn't dangerous to be inciting this kind of stuff, it would be funny.

Glenn Campbell ‏@GlennBBC
A senior lawyer has been instructed by the @scotgov to attend the legal challenge to the #Brexit process at the high court in London

Beth Rigby ‏@BethRigby
BREAK: On heels of No 10 climbdown, Stephen Phillips says he'll force govt 2 commit to 3-day parliamentary debate BEFORE triggering Art. 50

This is gold and badly needed. It does mitigate the Government's ability to drive a hard over the cliff type Brexit.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/councils-face-being-starved-26bn-9026772
Councils could be starved of £2.6bn of EU funding.

londonbrussels.wordpress.com/2016/10/12/the-uk-decision-to-withdraw-from-the-eu-parliament-or-government/
More on how a50 works

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
This morning, govt Brexit policy finally met reality: Small majority, a lack of mandate, economic damage, strategic disadvantage.

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Figmentofmyimagination · 12/10/2016 10:11

Here's a good one, worth watching and circulating -

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/10/11/brexit-does-not-work-video/

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 12/10/2016 10:32

I'm fucking terrified.

The hardliners without an ounce of common sense leading the whole country to a complete disaster.

Imagine if remain had won by tiny margin & the govt went for "hard remain" - Schengen, Euro, multilingual signage. People would go apeshit

True.

PattyPenguin · 12/10/2016 10:36

Motheroffourdragons, yes, the cost of taking a similar course to Norway was pointed out before the referendum, at least in the papers I read.

It's still nice to have it featured prominently on the BBC news website, particularly with the bus photo.

Peregrina · 12/10/2016 10:42

You can sum up in one sentence the disgusting opinions of the rabble of MPs who are demanding a Commons vote on Brexit:

These, bear in mind, are our elected representatives, that we supposedly voted to give back power to. The majority of whom of all parties, I would suggest, work conscientiously on their constituents behalf.

CeciledeVolanges · 12/10/2016 10:53

"Such snake-like treachery cannot go unpunished"?!

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 11:03

www.ft.com/content/a076953e-8ecb-11e6-a72e-b428cb934b78
Brexit: How to avoid a cliffhanger
Most parties accept the need for a transitional deal but there is little agreement on the format

The article is good, outlining four models for a transitional deal: the accident (immediate), the status quo prolonged (one to three years), the glide path (into the mid 2020s) where our commitments are tapered off and the basics (into the mid 2020s).

The fact this is now even being discussed is a move forward.

Btw, the government's pledge to give parliament scrutiny of negotiation plans is none binding and no date for a debate has been set. They still need to be held to it.

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe, things have shifted a lot overnight. Still reason to keep up the pressure but there are signs that government are really not going to have the free hand they would like and there is common sense rattling around .

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ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 12/10/2016 11:33

Yeah, I just don't understand why they are so hellbent on going the hard way.
Cutting you nose in spite of your face comes to mind.

I did read that they have been reconsidering the debate.

TheBathroomSink · 12/10/2016 11:39

I have a question. Kier Starmer has been Shadow Brexit for a week(ish) and has managed to create some serious-looking opposition, which can only be a good thing. What the fuck has Emily Thornberry been doing for the last three months?

jaws5 · 12/10/2016 11:40

"Here's what I would do with them: clap them in the Tower of London. They want to imprison us against our will in the EU so we should give them 28 days against their will to reflect on the true meaning of democracy. We're in the midst of an exhilarating people's revolution and those who stand in the way of the popular will must take what's coming to them."
Extremely dangerous rhetoric, reminiscent of the 30s again. Surely TM et al. must feel a tinge of worry and responsibility when reading this!

GloriaGaynor · 12/10/2016 11:41

On the subject of patriotism:

The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism...It works the same way in any country.

Goebbels

Peregrina · 12/10/2016 11:43

And people then wonder why we are making comparisons with the rise of Nazism!

GloriaGaynor · 12/10/2016 11:43

As to the transitional deal. I haven't seen the EU say anywhere that that will be acceptable to them. It just seems to be assumed that they would agree.

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 11:45

I follow a twitter account called The DM Reporter ‏@DMReporter which reports on the Daily Mail and its readers. Its very good, showing the best hypocrisy.

Anyway, its just tweeted a selection of the best comments from today's lead:

"What the hell is going on with these miserable completely failed politicians talking the United Kingdom down, are they still chasing cushy jobs in the EU so that they can keep their greedy snouts in the trough. There should be another fererendum (sic) on bringing back the crimes of treason and sedition.
Aussiebob, NSW, Australia

For God's sake, all you who wanted to remain!... YOU LOST, WE WON... We're leaving and thank goodness for that... Now go away while we all get on with the business of making Britain Great again!!!
Neil, in the North, United Kingdom

Arh, about the Leave voters challenging the government position....

Brilliant article. Remoaners have been shown not to know their a r s e from their elbows and need to get behind the country or f off to the EU.
The End, Hampshire

Liam Fox, David Davis and Boris Johnson being examples of the opposite.

Sadly, traitors can not longer be hung...
Festerfreddy2, St Albans, United Kingdom

Round them all up and put them in front of a firing squad for trying to subvert democracy
Hypnoman, Conway, United Kingdom

Do you have any response to the comments above Mrs May and the suggestion that you are quickly clearly guilty of potentially stirring up trouble?

bring the BBC down its full of pinkos and rich berks like Gideon friend of the lucans, what a digusting (sic) pig.
billyruffian 1805, London, United Kingdom.

When did George start working for the BBC? Missed that. Is it on iplayer?

How stupid are these people talking down their own country - even animals are not stupid enough to soil their own beds
Eric Gringham, Sydney, Australia

All pretty alarming really.

Meanwhile in the Times, this letter appeared earlier this week:
Sir, Two Englishmen arrived with a large oven yesterday. They refused to carry it down the stairs to my basement flat (notified in advance). They offered to leave it on the pavement or take it away again. My two Romanian builders put down their tools, carried the oven into my flat, and then went back to work.

While they did this, the English delivery men took photos of the stairs with their phones, muttered about health and safety and looked rightly embarrassed. Thank goodness for migrant workers.
Benjamin Pilling QC, London W8.

www.virgin.com/richard-branson/hard-brexit-direction-dangerous-and-slippery-slope
Richard Branson stands up for liberal values and citizens of the world.

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CeciledeVolanges · 12/10/2016 11:53

theBathroom isn't he shadow Attorney General?

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 12:15

Corbyn currently at PMQ. He is making the case for and on behalf of business with regard to the single market.

Labour. Against the Conservatives.

He's not doing bad.

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