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Brexit

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.

997 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 15:39

There is no plan. Or is there?

We’ve talked on the last thread about how it’s being set up as ‘Hard Brexit’ or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ (dubbed here as the ‘Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan’) by the hard line Brexiteers either as the plan or the means by which to force a softer deal with the EU (which perhaps seems to be preferred choice of Mrs May herself).

The last few weeks have been plagued by comments by various members of the Cabinet over what Brexit means – comments which are frankly bollocks and show an outstanding world class level of ignorance – and have led to us being laughed at (Verhofstadt head of EU negotiations), facing outright anger and demands for compensation (Japan) and pure bewilderment (USA unless your name is Donald).

And they have been repeated contradicted and undermined by May in response with, the response that this is not government policy and she will not be giving a running commentary.

Thus making the UK look like the world’s leading political basket case whilst at the same time being ‘an excellent place to make new investment in’. Obviously. As long as you prattle the words ‘Free Trade’ a lot a bright new world of opportunity will open up. Just look at the Japanese position on that.

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But really the reason why ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is still so vague, could be a legal one.

The next step in the Battle for Brexit, is in the courts and over whether the Royal Prerogative can be used to trigger a50 or whether May will have to first pass it through Parliament before she can notify the EU that we are leaving. This may prove to be a big hurdle for the government and one they have a real chance of losing particular the NI case.

The two big a50 challenges (though there are others) come from a cross party NI challenge supported by the NI Attorney General in Belfast and a crowdfunded ‘People’s challenge’ in the English courts. The NI challenge is characterised by a loss of rights and the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement, whilst the English challenge includes this as well as other acquired rights and concerns over the devolved assemblies and the Act of Union.

The government’s defence to this, which they sought a bizarre court order to protect and keep secret which was later overturned, is that ministers have better expertise to implement the start of Brexit than the courts (see Johnson, Fox and Davies), that it does not fall under parliament’s jurisdiction and that whilst the Royal Prerogative can’t be used to remove rights, because ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is so vague it’s impossible to challenge use of the Royal Prerogative because we don’t know precisely which rights will be affected!

The case for the government is also being presented by a relatively inexperienced lawyer.

However, some very respected constitutional law academics think the core of the government’s argument is sound, though this might be lost in the ridiculous other defences, the government have put along it. Their lead of the defence is a lawyer, who has little public law experience too.
The government need to win both these big cases, to ensure that they can use the Royal Prerogative. Don’t forget the likelihood of appeals regardless of the first ruling too.

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Into the political void the Irish PM has stepped in to led discussions into the future of the island, the Japanese have issued a Brexit ‘wish list, the Spanish have staked a claim to co-sovereignty of Gibraltar (something rejected overwhelming in a referendum in 2002) and threatened to block negotiations otherwise, a French Presidential hopeless has kindly offered us another referendum, the USA have reiterated that they won’t do a deal with us until our WTO status is in good order and the Italians have said ‘No chance!’. This is the UK taking back control folks.

At home Ken Clarke has said that May needs to get her act together, George Osborne has said Brexit did not mean hard Brexit and Dominic Grieve has urged her not to sleepwalk into a hard Brexit. The Tory conference looks set for all out Tory War.

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In a side issue the pro-Brexit newspaper, The Sun has come out in an editorial telling the Government to have the courage to pull the plug on the child sex abuse inquiry which was set up by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, calling it a ‘farce’ and saying its scope was too wide and unmanageable… It might seem unrelated, but it calls May’s judgment and handling of large issues into question. If she allows it to plow on, it could turn into an even bigger farce and embarrassment, yet if she U-Turns it could make her look weak and have the potential to do the same over Brexit. She’ll struggle to throw Amber Rudd under the bus over the matter, because most of this happened on her watch. This will come back to haunt May. It also starts to question Murdoch’s position and opinion of May. Is this a withdrawal of support for her?

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In summary, the next six to eight weeks are crucial to what Brexit looks like. It’s time for the shit to start hitting the fan. Brace yourselves for next couple of weeks. Get stocked up on the gin

We are not being led by UK politics anymore nor even internal squabbles really but the courts and outside forces which are shaping what is possible and achievable rather than what we want.

All talk is of a hard Brexit. It might well prove to be the case yet. We aren’t there yet though. There could be some more twists and turns yet.

An article 50 defeat in the courts for the government throws it back to Parliamentary scrutiny, taking up time and potentially watering down demands. It could even produce the result that a50 is deemed not fit for purpose and we have to go back to the EU begging for a new treaty for a way out (which technically they would have to do as they legally have to recognise democratic votes). This might be our only way to prevent a chaotic exit from the EU. This might led not to an exit though, but a two tier EU – a proposal suggested by, errrr Guy Verhofstadt, Head of EU Negotiations – and is very unlikely to prove to be the quick exit by 2020 that Kippers so desperately want. And a second referendum on the deal reached, in order to prove it was the will of the people. It could also prove a threat to the current government and raise the realistic spectre of a rebellion and a vote of no confidence and in turn a General Election.

Of course the EU themselves have a couple of their own headaches at the polls to survive too, whilst the German banks start to get the jitters. And there is the small matter of America having their own Brain Fart in the coming months, which could have a big impact on what happens next.

Yep, this is taking back control folks. What do you mean it feels more like a game of roulette? So might even say Russian roulette.

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Thread gallery
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merrymouse · 11/10/2016 17:40

www.google.co.uk/amp/theconcourse.deadspin.com/the-trump-campaign-is-ready-to-burn-this-motherfucker-d-1787656589/amp?client=safari

Is Motor Yacht A still for sale?

I predict that with the government in a mess and no credible competition, the Queen decides to get back in the game, yacht up and head across the Atlantic for Revolution - HRH strikes back.

RedToothBrush · 11/10/2016 17:50

fullfact.org/law/ask-full-fact-great-repeal-bill/
Fullfact.org have done a piece on the 'Great' Repeal Bill

And the government have published a Brexit Plan
budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2017/Documents/Getting%20Ireland%20Brexit%20Ready_final.pdf
The Irish Government

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Motheroffourdragons · 11/10/2016 18:20

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

RedToothBrush · 11/10/2016 18:23

www.ft.com/content/939c7ed0-8e32-11e6-a72e-b428cb934b78
The markets have taught Theresa May a hard lesson on sovereignty

The government would then learn the limits of sovereignty in an open economy. The views of Philip Hammond, chancellor of the exchequer, who reminded his party last week that the British people did not vote on June 23 “to become poorer, or less secure”, might then count for more, and those of the Brexiters in the cabinet for less. In a crisis, the unthinkable becomes thinkable. Triggering Article 50 without parliamentary approval might be impossible. It surely ought to be impossible. By a thin margin the country voted for some kind of Brexit. But the government has no mandate for the rather extreme version it is choosing. Moreover, Brexiters insist that their goal is to restore parliamentary sovereignty. Why then does the government plan to ignore parliament when these decisions are taken?

What drove Leavers was, we are also told, “the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK”. The currency markets demonstrate the emptiness of that principle. Britain’s EU partners are about to do the same. The premise of the Leave campaign was false: a host of decisions that affect the UK will always be taken outside it. But this truth is unlikely to stop the train towards a complete Brexit from departing on its timetabled journey. Stopping it would take a miracle, or rather a crisis. Is that likely? No. Is it possible? Yes

The suggestion that even if a50 is able to be triggered in the courts it might not be able to anyway without parliamentary approval if there is a financial crisis.

How likely is a crisis?

Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham
A crisis is possible says @martinwolf_. (FWIW, the smartest hedgie I know says it's likely).

Not unlikely then.

Interesting.

If this is true, May is somewhat painted into a political corner if she wins the a50 litigation. She has fought a legal case to win the right to use the royal prerog for a50 at considerable cost to the taxpayer, and given the Hard Brexiteers their finger on the button. Then she has to say, well actually because of this crisis we need to go through parliament anyway. Somehow I fear May stubborn enough to do it anyway, in this situation, making a crisis into a disaster.

Grim reading regardless of your position on Brexit.

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Motheroffourdragons · 11/10/2016 18:29

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

RedToothBrush · 11/10/2016 18:31

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/11/scottish-universities-snp-must-say-whether-taxpayers-will-fund-f/

Hard dilemma for the SNP.

Principals, staff and students joined forces to issue a joint call for the Scottish Government to say for how long their ‘free’ tuition policy will apply to EU students, who are already applying for degree programmes starting in autumn 2017.

Their demand for clarity came after Jo Johnson, the UK Universities Minister, announced that European students applying for places in England next year will continue receiving loans and grants for the duration of their studies, even if Brexit happens sooner.

SNP ministers are currently forced by European anti-discrimination laws to offer ‘free’ tuition to EU as well as Scottish students. However, Brexit will spell the end of this requirement.

If the SNP say they will guarantee it, then if Brexit does happen there is a hefty bill someone has to pay and political fall out.

But the reality is probably that the SNP can not refuse to fund EU students because to do that, sends a message that they believe Brexit will happen.

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TheNorthRemembers · 11/10/2016 18:42

I have thoroughly enjoyed Lord Heseltine's takedown of the three Brexiteers. www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/oct/11/george-osborne-to-be-questioned-by-mps-as-leak-reveals-treasury-brexit-warning-politics-live?page=with:block-57fcc19ae4b088a03a67d5ef#block-57fcc19ae4b088a03a67d5ef

We have three ministers now in charge, a brilliant set of appointments in my view because they can come up with the answers which have escaped me ... The ability to trade seems to me an important part of our future ... We have to find places to trade. And if there are all these markets that have escaped the attention of British exporters, it will be marvellous to have it pointed out to them by the new minister responsible.

[I am smirking with Osborne - the shame!]

RedToothBrush · 11/10/2016 18:49

www.alexsalmond.scot/press-releases/2016/10/11/omhhcnvz7h2s3cgf8w3eil08a010qw
Scotland wants not part in the economic sabotage hard brexit brings

Alex Salmond piece

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jaws5 · 11/10/2016 18:56

Red I really want to say thankyou! Fantastic work as usual. Terrifying but essential reading, I'm trying to plan a future for my family outside the UK now. I never thought this would happen.

PattyPenguin · 11/10/2016 19:03

I've never had much time for Tarzan, but I have to say, I hope I'll be capable of being that cutting when I'm his age.

RedToothBrush · 11/10/2016 19:08

Sir Gerald Howarth ‏@geraldhowarth
Frau Merkel, the UK rejected free movement. It's free trade or a trade war. German business won't be clapping if we stop buying BMWs #brexit

The best reply to this? I could post all the factual responses about why this is both a diplomatically poor response and just outright incorrect.

But, I thought I'd just stick with this one, after his yacht moment earlier today.

xxxy ‏@triplexy
@geraldhowarth bellend

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TheElementsSong · 11/10/2016 19:15

xxxy ‏@triplexy
@geraldhowarth bellend

I know it's totally immature of me but GrinGrinGrin

ManonLescaut · 11/10/2016 19:22

@rhiannonlucyc

Imagine if remain had won by tiny margin & the govt went for "hard remain" - Schengen, Euro, multilingual signage. People would go apeshit

RedToothBrush · 11/10/2016 19:36

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-house-of-lords-defeat-investigatory-powers-bill-leveson-inquiry_uk_57fd14a9e4b01fa2b90587cc?dfch6umcimsawnrk9&
Theresa May Suffers First Government Defeat As House Of Lords Backs Leveson Inquiry Recommendations

Theresa May today suffered her first government defeat, as the House of Lords voted through new laws to compensate phone hacking victims.

The amendment to the Investigatory Powers Bill was passed by 282 votes to 180. It was secured by an alliance of Labour, Liberal Democrat and Crossbench peers.

Its going to be a long, hard slog to 2020 isn't it? We are going to get loads of these aren't we.

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jaws5 · 11/10/2016 19:45

manon someone said something interesting this morning in the Guardian comments. They think it would be worse if Remain had won with 52%, the brexiters would be going apeshit, this way when all crashes soon they will have to accept brexit is nuts.... wishful thinking that provides consolation for a couple of minutes, or is there something there?

Mistigri · 11/10/2016 19:52

Pound through the floor again. How much punishment is the government prepared to let sterling take?

GreenandWhite · 11/10/2016 19:59

WTF? What do we need a yacht for? Angry Am flabbergasted. What is it supposed to be used for? The Telegraph article reads like a soot, seriously nobody in their right mind can suggest spending money on a government Yacht instead of International Development :

"Mark Francois, another former defence minister, agreed that it “might be appropriate if a number of Government departments were to share the costs, not least the Department for International Development which has a rising budget”.

WTF???? Voldemort and the Dementors

GreenandWhite · 11/10/2016 20:04

*spoof not soot

smallfox2002 · 11/10/2016 20:12

The answer to Gerald Howard is that German cars are not price sensitive. What are people going to buy otherwise? A British built Honda? Nope cause they will have been moved to the EU top.

Oh and belliend

CeciledeVolanges · 11/10/2016 20:13

Sorry for not really following the conversation, but I've made my way through yesterday's debate today and Davis blamed people talking down Sterling for it crashing.
However, it occurred to me suddenly - isn't it people like Farage who have been talking the EU down all this time who bear real blame? After all, it depends on co-operation. It can't be easy to carry out a major political project when some people won't even try.
Might be a stupid thought. But that's all really.

jaws5 · 11/10/2016 20:15

Simulation Theory says that our lives are not real but the simulations of a highly developed computer, Matrix style. I think that's the only explanation to this madness. It's a dystopian fantasy game we live in 😲

RedToothBrush · 11/10/2016 20:17

It gets worse. Well maybe not.

The Opposite Debate tomorrow is titled:
"That this House recognises that leaving the EU is the defining issue facing the UK; believes that there should be a full and transparent debate on the Government's plan for leaving the EU; and calls on the Prime Minister to ensure that this House is able to scruntise the plan for leaving the EU before Article 50 is invoked"

Faisal Islam though has a picture of this and it looks like the Government have made an amendment to the title if I understand this correctly. I am slightly godsmacked by it, if true (can someone look at this and tell me if I am understanding correctly as I'm truly stunned)

The Government amendment seemingly signed off by The Prime Minister, Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer, Secret Amber Rudd, Secretary Boris Johnson, Secretary David Davis and Gavin Williamson says

Insert at end
'and believe that the process should be undertaken in such a way that respects the decision of the people of the UK when they voted to leave the EU on 23 June and not undermine the negotiating position of the Government as negotiations are entered into which will take place after Article 50 has been triggered'

Thus changing the nature of the whole debate and completely reversing it!!!

The fact they have done this is interesting. Such a vote on the original title if supported by enough Tory MPs would effectively be a challenge to the government's position.

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
Must say I was quite surprised by this - thought that with the DUP, the Government had the numbers to defeat Labour...

It raises the question of just how many rebels are there!?

Please someone tell me I'm reading this right and not going crackers! I nearly chocked on my orange squash when I first saw it. If I'm right its significant.

Sufficient to say, that debate is going to be one to watch either way!

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.
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HPFA · 11/10/2016 20:21

Did my second spell of helping LibDems at the Witney campaign. They are putting in an enormous effort. They were quite encouraged to hear that David Cameron had been out campaigning locally - they didn't think he'd be doing that unless they were a little bit worried.
I can't say I think a win is likely - but hoping for a good showing.

RedToothBrush · 11/10/2016 20:23

Jon Lansdell @jonlansdell
@faisalislam can Labour reject that amendment?

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
Yes, unclear as yet what they are going to do. Could accept, and regroup for a later bigger battle. Dont know.

Yep this is democracy folks where the opposition are not allowed to table an opposition debate about transparency without the government acting to make about it being ok to have behind closed doors.

Unbelievable!

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LordRothermereBlackshirtCunt · 11/10/2016 20:37

HPFA - is the Horton hospital being brought up by voters when you're campaigning? I was interested to see Natalie Bennett's tweet, which Red referred to above, about locals booing Hunt's NHS plans.