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Brexit

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.

997 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 15:39

There is no plan. Or is there?

We’ve talked on the last thread about how it’s being set up as ‘Hard Brexit’ or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ (dubbed here as the ‘Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan’) by the hard line Brexiteers either as the plan or the means by which to force a softer deal with the EU (which perhaps seems to be preferred choice of Mrs May herself).

The last few weeks have been plagued by comments by various members of the Cabinet over what Brexit means – comments which are frankly bollocks and show an outstanding world class level of ignorance – and have led to us being laughed at (Verhofstadt head of EU negotiations), facing outright anger and demands for compensation (Japan) and pure bewilderment (USA unless your name is Donald).

And they have been repeated contradicted and undermined by May in response with, the response that this is not government policy and she will not be giving a running commentary.

Thus making the UK look like the world’s leading political basket case whilst at the same time being ‘an excellent place to make new investment in’. Obviously. As long as you prattle the words ‘Free Trade’ a lot a bright new world of opportunity will open up. Just look at the Japanese position on that.

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But really the reason why ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is still so vague, could be a legal one.

The next step in the Battle for Brexit, is in the courts and over whether the Royal Prerogative can be used to trigger a50 or whether May will have to first pass it through Parliament before she can notify the EU that we are leaving. This may prove to be a big hurdle for the government and one they have a real chance of losing particular the NI case.

The two big a50 challenges (though there are others) come from a cross party NI challenge supported by the NI Attorney General in Belfast and a crowdfunded ‘People’s challenge’ in the English courts. The NI challenge is characterised by a loss of rights and the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement, whilst the English challenge includes this as well as other acquired rights and concerns over the devolved assemblies and the Act of Union.

The government’s defence to this, which they sought a bizarre court order to protect and keep secret which was later overturned, is that ministers have better expertise to implement the start of Brexit than the courts (see Johnson, Fox and Davies), that it does not fall under parliament’s jurisdiction and that whilst the Royal Prerogative can’t be used to remove rights, because ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is so vague it’s impossible to challenge use of the Royal Prerogative because we don’t know precisely which rights will be affected!

The case for the government is also being presented by a relatively inexperienced lawyer.

However, some very respected constitutional law academics think the core of the government’s argument is sound, though this might be lost in the ridiculous other defences, the government have put along it. Their lead of the defence is a lawyer, who has little public law experience too.
The government need to win both these big cases, to ensure that they can use the Royal Prerogative. Don’t forget the likelihood of appeals regardless of the first ruling too.

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Into the political void the Irish PM has stepped in to led discussions into the future of the island, the Japanese have issued a Brexit ‘wish list, the Spanish have staked a claim to co-sovereignty of Gibraltar (something rejected overwhelming in a referendum in 2002) and threatened to block negotiations otherwise, a French Presidential hopeless has kindly offered us another referendum, the USA have reiterated that they won’t do a deal with us until our WTO status is in good order and the Italians have said ‘No chance!’. This is the UK taking back control folks.

At home Ken Clarke has said that May needs to get her act together, George Osborne has said Brexit did not mean hard Brexit and Dominic Grieve has urged her not to sleepwalk into a hard Brexit. The Tory conference looks set for all out Tory War.

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In a side issue the pro-Brexit newspaper, The Sun has come out in an editorial telling the Government to have the courage to pull the plug on the child sex abuse inquiry which was set up by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, calling it a ‘farce’ and saying its scope was too wide and unmanageable… It might seem unrelated, but it calls May’s judgment and handling of large issues into question. If she allows it to plow on, it could turn into an even bigger farce and embarrassment, yet if she U-Turns it could make her look weak and have the potential to do the same over Brexit. She’ll struggle to throw Amber Rudd under the bus over the matter, because most of this happened on her watch. This will come back to haunt May. It also starts to question Murdoch’s position and opinion of May. Is this a withdrawal of support for her?

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In summary, the next six to eight weeks are crucial to what Brexit looks like. It’s time for the shit to start hitting the fan. Brace yourselves for next couple of weeks. Get stocked up on the gin

We are not being led by UK politics anymore nor even internal squabbles really but the courts and outside forces which are shaping what is possible and achievable rather than what we want.

All talk is of a hard Brexit. It might well prove to be the case yet. We aren’t there yet though. There could be some more twists and turns yet.

An article 50 defeat in the courts for the government throws it back to Parliamentary scrutiny, taking up time and potentially watering down demands. It could even produce the result that a50 is deemed not fit for purpose and we have to go back to the EU begging for a new treaty for a way out (which technically they would have to do as they legally have to recognise democratic votes). This might be our only way to prevent a chaotic exit from the EU. This might led not to an exit though, but a two tier EU – a proposal suggested by, errrr Guy Verhofstadt, Head of EU Negotiations – and is very unlikely to prove to be the quick exit by 2020 that Kippers so desperately want. And a second referendum on the deal reached, in order to prove it was the will of the people. It could also prove a threat to the current government and raise the realistic spectre of a rebellion and a vote of no confidence and in turn a General Election.

Of course the EU themselves have a couple of their own headaches at the polls to survive too, whilst the German banks start to get the jitters. And there is the small matter of America having their own Brain Fart in the coming months, which could have a big impact on what happens next.

Yep, this is taking back control folks. What do you mean it feels more like a game of roulette? So might even say Russian roulette.

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Thread gallery
29
ImpYCelyn · 12/10/2016 12:17

About time he woke up!

jaws5 · 12/10/2016 12:29

yes, come on Corbyn, this is your moment on a plate!

GreenandWhite · 12/10/2016 12:44

"I consider myself a citizen of the world. That is not a contradiction in terms. It simply means that my fellow global citizens and I hold certain values to be universal. Tolerance and openness are among them, or the idea that all of us, regardless of nationality, ethnicity, gender, creed, or sexual orientation should have equal access to opportunity." Richard Branson. Thank you for speaking out, my international cosmopolitan family also subscribe to these values Star

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 12:57

Keir Starmer just starting the opposition debate now.

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RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 13:04

Says the government is making a 'step in the right direction towards scrutiny'.

Caroline Lucas says that there is no vote mentioned in the government's change of position.

Davis playing with his glasses in thoughtful pose as if its a chess game.

Starmer - this should not be about point scoring across the house.

Has just been challenged about the level of detail of the negotiating position, but says we should at least discuss the base to UK position with something of a degree of flexibility.

Says two aspects to debate - one accountability to parliament and one about the uncertainty to the country.

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RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 13:08

challenged about how much scrutiny to Lisbon treaty. Says in response that the entry to the EEC was put to parliament at least in part and particularly with regard to the economic implications.

Keir says priority should be the economy and jobs.

Says that parliament needs time to scruntise BEFORE a50 triggered as any debate after is purely academic.

Davis interrupts and disagrees with this.

(POINT TO PURSUE HERE - SUSPECT GOVERNMENT WANT TO DELAY DEBATE UNTIL AFTER MARCH)

Keir points to a Lords report that says that parliament should be involved AT EVERY STAGE of the process.

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RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 13:13

Mary Creagh, making point that people voted to leave the EU but they didn't vote to have cost of living go up etc.

Starmer says we should not have a norweigian, swiss, Canadian or Turkish model.

Where is the mandate? The referendum is NOT the mandate for the terms. There is a mandate for exit. I accept that. There is no mandate for the terms. Its not been put to the public, to the party nor parliament.

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SapphireStrange · 12/10/2016 13:16

I don't disagree that scrutiny should happen after Article 50 is invoked. It IS going to be invoked. And it doesn't matter. All negotiations will happen afterwards. Debate after is not purely academic.

But Parliament must have a vote on any eventual deal. I'm firm on that.

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 13:17

Chris Bryant - the royal prerog is key. There was previously a rule that treaties had to go through parliament which has been reinstated and revoked over time. Thinks it should be made to go through parliament.

Starmer - the prerog is not fixed, it changes over time. And even if it does have the power to be used it is being used a cloak to prevent scrutiny.

Refusal to put through the house is because there is a fear to loose a vote. (Implication that it is political rather than something that is in the best interest of the country as it would pass if it was the right option).

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RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 13:20

Talking of royal prerog saying that the bigger the issue the more that parliament should have scrutiny.

Is now quoting Davis on the Royal Prerog in 1999. Criticising him for reversing his position about the above principle.

Even if the prerog permits the government to withhold plans from parliament it does not mean it should.

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RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 13:22

Starmer asked if he would vote for a50 for not.

Dodges the question really saying that he recognises the vote.

Then says that if the terms are not appropriate this is important. The government said it would build a national consensus around Brexit, but how can we do this if the public and parliament are not informed of the terms.

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RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 13:27

IDS redraws his comments about Starmer being a second rate lawyer. (wooohahhahaha!)

IDS asks what the definition of 'Leaving the EU' is after Starmer says about the question on the ballot paper. Suggests it about British law.

Starmer says there is no one definition. This is really his point and why it needs to be debated.

Now saying about the single market membership is no longer a priority for the government when previously it was considered to be. Challenges by quoting Davis over this. Says that he has extrapolated from the leave vote that this meant a hard brexit and this is not necessarily the case.

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RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 13:32

States that the opposition debate is not intended to frustrate the vote on 23 june nor negoigiations. It is about determining other matters. He needs more than the governments previous comments on scrutiny.

Starmer is being truly superb.

Sorry, need a short break though.

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RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 13:51

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
Starmer weakness is his party's quantum uncertainty over single market membership. As far as it's comprehensible, it amounts to being pro-free movement & anti-single market. That's just a political invitation for punishment

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
What just happened in the Commons is what you'd expect from a mature democracy making a historic decision. Took three months to get here.

Davis now speaking.

David Allen Green ‏@DavidAllenGreen
Davis dismissing Labour's 170 (fair, reasonable) Brexit questions as a "stunt".

His lack of seriousness does not bode well for Brexit. Davis could have said: these are questions are important and if I cannot answer them now, I will soon.

But no, uses "stunt" jibe itself.

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
... some of the 170 questions would preempt the negotiation strategy, says @DavidDavisMP. Davis: "we will not allow anyone to veto the decision of the people"

Trying to weasel way out of scrutiny?

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
Frank Field: "as long standing Brexiteer, what are the reasons for triggering Article 50" early..Davis refers to Corbyn saying "immediately"

Dodges the question.

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
Davis "broadly welcomes" Labour Brexit scrutiny - but with caveats. "We should do nothing to jeopardise the negotiation".

Claire Perry Con, just says that a lot of people in the public think that Brexit is ideology over the national interest and this is causes a problem. They want some kind of real idea of policy and detail to put their concerns to rest.

VERY Good point here. Coming from a Conservative.

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
Davis: "I hardly think it's ideology." Perry: "Well I do."

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
Davis says with a straight face he wants to build a "national consensus" around his approach to Brexit

(By rampant nationalism in the press it would seem rather than parliament)

So far all Davis has done has been to dodge the point.

David Allen Green ‏@DavidAllenGreen
Davis is preventing parliament having a vote so parliament can have "unequivocal" control after exit.

Destroying a village so to save it.

Davis says:
Aims clear and completely undoubtful.

Starmer replies: Are we going to get more than those four sentences? Are we going to get a plan?

Trying to cut through the waffly bollocks.

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ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 12/10/2016 13:52

RTB, have you considered a career in subtitles?
Grin

Unicornsarelovely · 12/10/2016 13:56

How fantastic that there is actually some opposition (and some of it from within the conservative party). Well done Claire Perry!

The Daily Express headline strikes me as another example of not knowing history. Wasn't it Charles I who thought his prerogative and power overrode everything else, including parliamentary democrary (such as it was).

CeciledeVolanges · 12/10/2016 13:58

And well done Red :) thanks for doing this.

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 14:00

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
Tory backbencher @chrisphilp_mp says business decisions already being made, such as VTB Bank, asks for more clarity. Davis can't...

David Davis asked by @JackDromeyMP if there is going to be a green paper outlining plan as George Eustice has suggested, apparently: "No"

Some points out on twitter Davis calling the 170 questions a stunt is due to him being unable to answer them.

John ‏@john_ellis
Not only this - but reasonable / thoughtful questions from both benches, which he clearly hasn't got a clue how to respond.

David Allen Green ‏@DavidAllenGreen
Have been a long-time fan of Davis.

But no evidence of substance behind any of his Brexit answers. Flimsy. There is no hidden strategy. The "takes time" and "not reveal at this stage" lines for non-disclosure of Brexit strategy are cloaks for no strategy at all.

At which point you ask, why the hell aren't they putting this to parliament, to help with the problem rather than sitting in their offices pretending the have it all under control and failing miserably in the process.

Anna Soubry asks straight out, has the government turned back on manifesto pledge re single market.

Davis waffles.

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
Quite clear that when govt says it will subject itself to scrutiny it means they'll wheel Davis out to say nothing at all.

David Allen Green ‏@DavidAllenGreen
Davis is winging this. Worrying. Will not reassure sincere Leavers, let alone Remainers.

House is starting to get rowdy and annoyed in tone. A certain amount of frustration is definitely boiling over.

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GloriaGaynor · 12/10/2016 14:02

Yep Charles 1 and James II tried to rule without Parliament with famous consequences...

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 14:04

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
Soubry: "Has the govt turned its back on membership of the single market? Yes or no please?"
Davis: "This intervention shows the problems we have over language." The man has no idea what he's doing. "We're not going to go for a Norwegian option, we're not going to go for a Swiss option. We're going to be going for a British option."
Jesus Christ.

Ian Dunt might explode again.

Neil Gray SNP, just picks him up on his inability to answer the question. Are we in the single market or not. Yes or no.

Davis reels off Norway etc, saying its a spectrum of options.

Dodging again.

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Kaija · 12/10/2016 14:06

"Davis: "This intervention shows the problems we have over language." "

That's some textbook mansplaining there.

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 14:10

Faisal Islam retweeting person saying that Davis speech is pushing the pound lower again.

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
Neil Gray, SNP: "You're either member of single market or you're not." Davis: "It's astonishing how black and white they think this is." He then says - I'm not making this up - "it is a spectrum of outcomes". Amazing.

David Allen Green ‏@DavidAllenGreen
Davis: "Single Market not a single entity but a spectrum of outcomes".

Nope, no idea either.

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GreenandWhite · 12/10/2016 14:18

Watching <a class="break-all" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37622928?intlink_from_url=www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-37628684&link_location=live-reporting-story" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37622928?intlink_from_url=www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-37628684&link_location=live-reporting-story
Corbin and May debating Brexit, Corbin doesn't come across too badly (and I don't like him much) but May comes across as a thug. She doesn't seem particularly smart. I believe she is a political opportunist (campaigned for remain, now leading brexit) and that she aims for a hard brexit out of ideology. She confirmed that people voted Brexit for 2 reasons, to get out of the EU and control migration). I don't think she has any decent plan and continues to employ the rhetoric of "I am optimistic" (à la I believe, positive thinking will get us a greta deal etc. etc. ) Also, she looks petrified.

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 14:18

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
I think the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union just likened Brexit negotiations to buying a house... expecting a gazumping?

David Allen Green ‏@DavidAllenGreen
There is no evidence - even indication - of any policy depth in a single one of Davis's answers in this debate.

Every answer is flimsy.

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
Alex Salmond has pointed out that Scotland is about to get full control over agriculture and fisheries. Davis admits he hasn't actually talked to the devolved assemblies about this.

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
Davis coming under regular attack by his own side.

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
Still waiting for what extra scrutiny Davis is offering - "no white paper" he says

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RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 14:22

BBC live feed had this at 13:29
A minister has suggested that the Government may soon publish a paper setting out its Brexit negotiating strategy.

Speaking to the Daily Politics, George Eustice said it was “quite likely” that a green or white paper would be published.

Asked if a white paper would be published, the Agriculture Minister said: "That’s quite possible yes. We’re doing a lot of work at the moment and closer to it it’s quite likely that we will have a green paper, white paper, discussions of this sort."

The BBC reported earlier this week that the Government had changed its mind on plans to produce a Green Paper with the broad outlines of its Brexit objectives this autumn.

Mr Eustice also refused to rule out the possibility of Britain continuing to make payments to the European Union after Brexit.

"These are all issues that can be discussed," he said. "If you look at countries like Norway, they participate in some elements that go wider than the EU and they make a payment for those bits that they participate in."

So there is an expectation that a white paper on the cards from ministers in the conservative party

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