Project Fear were wrong all along?

[MrsPeterParker]

With all the newspapers and economic reports screaming there is no/ only positive impact of brexit so far, do you think the Remainers were all wrong and needlessly projecting doomsday scenarios ?

We haven't even left yet but I've seen lots of redundancies and a fair few businesses go to the wall due to foreign investors pulling out of deals. The exchange rates have also lost a lot of companies who deal with Europe and the US a lot of money.

I will simply say that Smallfox has a very odd way of looking at things.
In previous threads I have made suggestions as to what I thought. I then often got a sneering comment from Smallfox which was hardly conducive to any continued debate. How could I have been rude to her first in these circumstances?

Ha, ha, how can anyone say that when it hasn't happened yet!?

It's been a lot less worse than they all predicted.
But we are only at the early stages, so ... we'll see.
The doomers were pretty bad though. Most of it has turned out to be untrue.

I'm sure we'll get through it. People always do. They cope, they adapt. That's what humans do.

Cocory, you were actually very rude, long before I was to you.

Of course I'm going to sneer if you make such facetious remarks about a EU army with conscription, it shows you didn't do your research, there were other spurious reasons too.

As to being conducive to the debate, you and your leave acolytes ave been asked repeatedly for what you want to see from brexit and have repeatedly failed to answer these questions, how is that for not contributing to debate?

Here's to freedom

Good luck with that.

jaws5 what is happening to people in your position is shameful and I am sorry.

Ah freedom, to be told what to do by someone exercising the royal perogative.

Freedom is a bit crap if you can't afford to go anywhere or buy anything made of imported materials because your currency is so weak, or if the main attraction of your country is that wages and taxes are low and employment rights are practically non-existent.

I can't see how anyone would want to raise a glass to that unless they are in their late 90s with no dependants and no social conscience.

figment that's exactly it, the lack of social conscience. How can anyone with children support this madness?

I'm lucky as my children have double nationality British/EU, but I know many parents who see a very limited future for their children now, and are very upset and worried. I just can't believe the tunnel vision.

jaws5 yes, I agree. It's a huge relief that my family's multiple citizenships mean DCs future not limited by this and I find it incomprehensible that any parent could deliberately strip their DCs of substantial rights they acquired at birth.

However, let's look to our great Brexit leaders to see if this is just yet another baseless "fear":

Nigel Farage getting caught at the German embassy applying for EU passports for his kids as reported here in Politico would suggest he agrees how important this is

Boris Johnson also "changed his mind" on his very public proclamation of intention to revoke US citizenship in a bizarrely coincidental U turn , as reported in the Wahington Post giving him the theoretical option to claim US citizenship for his children in future if he so wishes. Nice one BoJo.

Actions speak louder than words.

that's exactly it, the lack of social conscience. How can anyone with children support this madness?

Hey! I don't have children but I do have a social conscience! It is possible to have one without other, you know. I am as incensed at the idea of other UK citizens (and myself) being stripped of our EU membership as anyone with children. We all have skin in the free movement game, don't we?

And no, I do not support Brexit and voted to remain.

Of course sapphire I didn't mean children and social conscience go together! I was referring to the lack of future opportunities which, by the time Brexit's consequences become tragically clear, will affect people who are young today.

ForeignOffice yes, I saw Farage's antics, hilarious really, but his supporters will defend anything he does!

I know, jaws. I just could cry about Brexit and its implications – for everyone – and don't like to think that anyone might think the only people who care are those who might immediately lose out because of it.

You gotta laugh, remember Bojo? Telling every lie to get us to vote to Leave the EU. Now he tells Turkey he will be its biggest advocate to get them into the EU.

Michael Fallon declares UK will do everything to stop EU having its own army. How does that work, if we're not in the EU?

And star baker Fox, tells the EU we're leaving because other markets are more important whilst PM is telling 'em she wants a trade deal with EU.

And these are the guys in charge of getting us out!

And, as usual, BoJo hasn't got a clue what he's talking about. How can anyone take this clown seriously?

Petronius - Bojo didn't actually say he would get Turkey into the EU. He said as far as I remember that the UK would do everything it could to help Turkey. He then went on to talk about how good his Turkish built washing machine is. He is a bit of a fool but I think he was talking about doing trade with them. They might think differently!
France and Germany are discussing now at a meeting in Bratislava about closer military ties. Michael Fallon is at that meeting and as we are still in the EU he can oppose the idea.
As for Fox, I listened to most of his talk today and I don't remember him saying anything about wanting deals with other countries as they were more important than the EU. He want us to export more to all countries including the EU as he was saying we should reduce our trade deficit with the EU.
It's very interesting on these threads how people with a particular bias can so easily spin things to look as if they are ridiculous in order to prove their own point.

I know what you mean about people interpreting things as they see fit corcory but that could so easily be resolved if those who are supposed to be leading us through Brexit had a clear message which wasn't subject to interpretation.

This whole mess is caused by the fact no one has a clue what to do next.

The one sector in which the UK does have a trade surplus rather than deficit with the EU is services, mainly financial services and insurance, where the surplus is £20 million.

Remind me which sector stands to lose its markets in the EU if the UK is no longer part of the single market and loses passporting rights.

So if we're not exporting as many services, what are we going to export? Just to stand still, I mean, not even to grow the economy.

Mind you, if we're going back 150 years, as Liam Fox suggests, we could sell people steam engines and coal and roofing slates and clothing. Can anyone see the problem with that?

One thing that annoys me is the constant claims that we were lied to.

Well aren't we always lied to??

When Blair was voted in did we know there was going to be an illegal war??
When Obama was voted in did we think that the changes to health care wasn't going to happen (or not as promised).
When have we ever known that what was promised by those out of power would be instigated when in power?
It's quite unrealistic.

Well aren't we always lied to?

And you think that is a good thing?

To be honest, there are many matters of security where I don't need to know all the details. However, I wouldn't then expect MI5 to come for me for advice.

This was a referendum. The public were being asked to make a decision about the EU, but they were deliberately fed misinformation.

Corcory, no he didn't 'actually say he would get them into the EU' but he did indicate he would be their biggest advocate', well at least the Telegraph and Sun thought he did.

More importantly is the view of the EU's chief Brexit negotiator, Guy Verhofstadt, who said on Facebook,

“So Boris Johnson wants to help Turkey join the EU, after he just campaigned for the UK to leave the EU on the basis that Turkey would be joining the EU in the near future. The UK defence Minister today says the UK Government will block EU efforts to enhance its security capabilities, even though the UK is leaving the EU, yet they say they want an enhanced security relationship with the EU after Brexit. Liam Fox, the UK trade minister, has indicated the UK will leave the EU's customs union, because he thinks other markets are more important, yet his Prime Minister tells us that the EU27 "will sign" an ambitious trade deal with the UK. Politics never fails to surprise me!”

And Johnson has always been in favour to Turkey joining the EU,

In 2008 (?) the Conservative Friends of Turkey was founded. Included in its objectives is

Lobby in favour of Turkish membership of the EU with a stress on Turkey’s role in the bloc, the region and its strong ties to Western institutions

Founder members include Boris Johnson, Douglas Carswell, Daniel Hannan and eight other pro-leave Mps and MEPs - all campaigning to get Turkey membership of the EU whilst at the same time campaigning with the fear message of Turkey joining. Strange.

MissMargie – certainly politicians lie to us but I do not remember, ever, and I've been around a long time, one so dramatic as the £350million a week and the promise being broken within 24 hours.

I don't follow your example of Tony Blair – he didn't promise before the election not to go to war. The question of whether to go war on the evidence provided came after the election.

Neither do I think what happened to Obama's health plan is in the same league – he took the plan to Congress/Senate and lost the vote. Quite different and an example of democracy.

Bearbehind - I feel we keep getting trotted out 'this whole mess is caused by the fact no one has a clue what to do next' thing all the time. But the problem with that is you and I may well not know what is going on, but it doesn't mean the government doesn't know what is going on. Just because they haven't told us all what there plan is doesn't mean there isn't one.

Petronius - Just what I mean, you have just repeated what the EU negotiator thinks they said, again obviously biased but not actually what they said. Two wrongs don't make a right.