'Brexit means Brexit' - a political statement devoid of meaning

[xmasadsboohiss]

I'm not here to rehash the rights and wrongs of the Brexit vote - I was all for remaining but that's by the by. But TM's incessant repetition of 'Brexit means Brexit' is surely an insult to everyone's intelligence. No one knows what Brexit means that's the whole fecking point! I understand that she's trying to say there will be no second referendum (short sighted anyway precisely because no one knows what the negotiations will throw up) but Nigel Farage's idea of Brexit is I'm sure different from say a more moderate Tory's (?). You may as well try nailing jelly to the wall as define what it really means at this stage.

itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/ft-alphachat/id448302257?mt=2&i=374974743

Podcast about the Trump heartlands e.g. Louisiana.

Similarly to parts of the U.K., there is low immigration, but people's lives have been affected by global competition - loss of local industry, loss of well paid jobs.

Fear of of the unknown and foreign influence has been easily channelled into fear of immigrants, but neither Trump nor Brexit will or can offer any protection from globalisation.

Bearbehind - I know you, smallfox, & a couple of others on this board are ( still ) really struggling with the referendum result. I wish I could help you, but nothing any leaver says will give you what you desparately need, & that's for the UK to remain within the EU. That just isn't going to happen & it really is time you 'got over it' - & I'm saying that with compassion. I know lashing out at the few leavers still giving you the time of day is probably helping in some way, but nothing that gets said on here is going to make an iota of difference to anything. Maybe start a support group on Facebook or something? I don't know? but if you're still raging 10 weeks on it's not great is it.

Not raging at all, questionIngleton the reasons yes.

You've never stated anything valid and none e has any idea of what brexit looks like, maybe you should form a group to decide what.it is you want. As it is your unlikely to.get it, it certainly won't be a ukip style brexit.

Some version of 'exit' from the EU is inevitable, whether it is window dressing to please Leave voters or complete exit.

However, of course the 48% of the population who voted remain are still engaged and wondering what on earth is going on, particularly as the majority of academics, business owners, politicians, civil servants - the people who will actually have to manage 'Brexit' - voted remain and Leavers honestly don't seem to have a clue what they were voting for.

surfer if you're still raging 10 weeks on it's not great is it.

I don't know about 'raging' but I, for one, have no intention of shutting up about the mess that is Brexit. Racist Farage and his ilk whinged for forty-odd years. 10 weeks is nothing.

I'm not happy with where we are at all. Not happy about the increase in xenophobia, not happy about the lack of planning, not happy about the utter dickheads that May has appointed to manage Brexit. We are all entitled to continue discussing, arguing, writing to our MPs for as long as it takes.

Maybe you should have a read of this article about Brexit censorship link

The Leavers do seem to be incredible sensitive to people continuing to point out that Brexit is shit and seem intent - as you are - on trying to get them to shut up. I wonder why? Where is their (your) confidence in your Brave New World?

Incidentally, your last post sounded remarkably like a very large barrel being scraped.

The Leavers do seem to be incredible sensitive to people continuing to point out that Brexit is shit and seem intent - as you are - on trying to get them to shut up.

YY Gideon, this has probably been the main message from Leavers pretty much since the morning of 24 June. Sometimes it's a bald "Shut up, you lost, if you don't like it fuck off to North Korea." Sometimes it's "The People have spoken (and apparently they can only speak once, by means of putting an X in a box) therefore democracy." Sometimes it's dressed up as faux concern suggesting people who disagree with them are mentally ill. Sometimes it's dressed up as faux concern that the Internet will, I dunno, run out of pixels or something.

Strange how people who are so concerned about Democracy are so preoccupied with preventing its normal processes from taking place.

Did they leavers on here ever come back and say what they would consider a "good enough" Brexit?

Did they leavers on here ever come back and say what they would consider a "good enough" Brexit?

I think I have already asked that 3 or 4 times. I haven't insulted anyone, just asked a straight question. What do you want Theresa May to deliver?

I suspect what the leavers want is:

Controls on immigration so that EU citizens have to apply for working visas etc.

Full access to the EU common market for all goods and services.

The ability to remove EU regulation and not have to adhere to regulations that are set by the EU in future.

No contributions to EU funding.

Collaborative research with EU insititutions to continue.

On top of this there are multitudes of wants of individual stakeholder groups within the leave vote that are too numerous to mention.

Surfer posters on this thread are worried about the (very uncertain) future, rather than raging. We live in a democracy after all, free speech being a corner stone.
As for compassion

There's no point in engaging with surfer on these threads as she is completely unable to offer anything more than 'yay we're leaving the EU'

To her that entails closing the borders and only letting the 'good un's' in and she has no comprehension of the impact of doing that.

If we do ever get to that stage, they'll be a hell of a lot more to worry about than there is now with immigrants which is why people need to be very careful what they wish for.

Enjoy your bubble surfer. If this government or even UKIP let you down there's always the BNP.

surfer I think it is great we are still raging on here ten weeks later, and exchanging views and information and links to help us achieve our ambition to make Brexit as soft and to cause as little damage as possible. It isn't just on here you know, it is also helping inform letters to MPs and what we do in our day jobs to try and make sure that even the thickest and most narrow minded and ignorant Brexit Minister (currently Lliam Fox is in the lead on that one, and given the recent evidence of his panic it is clearly working ) comes to realise just how damaging it will be if they get their way.

Oh surfer btw its called debate, and is allowed in a democracy, but you only like democracy when it suits you.

Stifling debate is part of dictatorship.

Whatwould "it is also helping inform letters …" Yes, just sent an email to the Observer to remind one letter writer of what Faridge said in May this year.

As a Eurosceptic Remain voter I want to make sure people know what's happening, though I'm quite relaxed about it all. However, I'm sure that if I'd have voted Leave I would be livid at what's happened since. Cornwall voted Leave, but the head of County Council wrote to the government saying they still expected their grants to continue and will keep their Brussels office going because of all the benefits they get – kept that quiet.

The farmers voted Leave but government have promised them their grants until 2020 – that's £3milliion to the Duke of Westminster a year and £4 million to Prince Charles. Why? They voted no to grants from the EU but they should go to the NHS.

Oh, and apparently TM says £350 million a week will not go to the NHS.

Leavers, please tell me you think that's wrong, or rather please tell me something of how you feel.

Petronius - your analogy about who gets the farm subsidies is exactly why I feel the current EU farm subsidies should be changed to suit the UK's farming culture and that this 'one size fits all situation' is of no use to us. There are large land owners racking it in, there are people being paid to grow nothing, there are farmers being told what they can and can't grow. All just daft. Money could certainly be much better spent and when we have control that should change.

Ha! You think that farmers won't get subsidies? They'll get everything that they currently do.

You know that Grouse Moorlands got increased subsidies in the last budget? Direct from government not from the EU.

You do realise who is in power and whose interests they represent? Just a hint, it isn't you.

I certainly don't want farmers to get no subsidies but that they are better distributed to different types of farming. Hill farming is much less productive for instance than farming in the fens.

Corcory Why do you think a Government which dishes out money for Grouse Moorlands is suddenly going to have a change of heart and start distributing money more fairly?

Also what do you expect hill farmers to do once the subsidies are removed? What do you think will happen to the products they supply?

But I do think hill farmers will continue to get subsidies Small. I don't really know what you mean about what will happen to the products they supply.
Peregrina - Yes I do hope that subsidies will be distributed more fairly. As far as I understand it subsidies are handed out according to how much land you have which doesn't always give the subsidies to the right people. There are plenty of smaller hill farms with Grouse moors and Pheasant shoots.

Products? I mean like lamb, wool etc, what happens to the cost to the consumer?

The question about grouse moors and pheasant shoots is about the type of people that take part in these sports, lets be honest its not your average Joe, why shouldn't they simply pay more?

As I've said I think hill farmers would continue to get subsidies. Small - wool is not a product of sheep farming in the UK. It has virtually no value and only just about covers the cost of shearing.
I really don't know enough about the subsidies given to Grouse moors. The only thing I would want to see would be encouragement of looking after the local wild life and I'm not sure the encouraging of Grouse shooting does that. But it would have to be looked at in conjunction with the employment opportunities it gives locally and the continuation of a community.

As I've said I think hill farmers would continue to get subsidies. Small - wool is not a product of sheep farming in the UK. It has virtually no value and only just about covers the cost of shearing.
I really don't know enough about the subsidies given to Grouse moors. The only thing I would want to see would be encouragement of looking after the local wild life and I'm not sure the encouraging of Grouse shooting does that. But it would have to be looked at in conjunction with the employment opportunities it gives locally and the continuation of a community.

That's just wishful thinking though, Corcory. Nor do I see much commitment from the present government for looking after wildlife.