'Brexit means Brexit' - a political statement devoid of meaning

[xmasadsboohiss]

I'm not here to rehash the rights and wrongs of the Brexit vote - I was all for remaining but that's by the by. But TM's incessant repetition of 'Brexit means Brexit' is surely an insult to everyone's intelligence. No one knows what Brexit means that's the whole fecking point! I understand that she's trying to say there will be no second referendum (short sighted anyway precisely because no one knows what the negotiations will throw up) but Nigel Farage's idea of Brexit is I'm sure different from say a more moderate Tory's (?). You may as well try nailing jelly to the wall as define what it really means at this stage.

They do, but they can also do it here.

& the reasons some come to the UK are?

There were good opportunities here. I think we may have fixed that now, so you can relax.

surfer could you please answer my question about what you think UKIP could achieve if this government fails to deliver what you expect.

The same reason there are 1.2 million Brits living in the EU surfer

But you see, as immigrants are a benefit to the country you should be happy, just your prejudices get in the way.

No smallfox, your pathetic come backs are just that - pathetic.
You see the UK as a total pile of shit full of uneducated idiots like me, so why do people come here? - you still haven't provided me with enough reasons.

My pathetic come backs? Better than you spurious flawed reasoning, the UK is fine, but you are an idiot, proved many times over.

Why shoudn't people move if they have the right to?

As I said there are 1.2 million Brits living in the EU they move for work, for opportunities etc.

surfer how is small being pathetic when it's you that's resorting to increasingly incoherent posts in order to attempt to avoid answering questions?

We got some control on free movement of people, and of course when you are challenged as to why you don't want freedom of movement you'll spout the same spurious reasons about immigrants.

How wonderful for you to be so secure in the knowledge that you know my mind better than me.
'Of course' I will follow the lines that you have already decided for me.
This is one of the reasons I get bored so quickly on these threads now, because some posters are so presumptuous re 'knowing' what others will do/say, thus shutting down the point of bothering at all to engage.

Also the things that you fail to acknowledge repeatedly is outside the EU there is a strong posibility that freedom of movement will continue in some form and that we'll have to enact EU regulation into law.

The point I "repeatedly" fail to acknowledge?!
Ok then.
Again, presumptuous posting.

Economic diversity? Its not all that, 16 of 27 EU countries are in the richest in the world, btw Ireland isn't included in that. But again that point allows you to imply that there are rich and poor countries, and anyone coming from another country is here to take advanage of our some how superior way of life.

So just over half are amongst richest in world?
Goodo.
What about the other 11?
Also, have never once said or even implied that we (UK) have a 'superior' anything to anyone else - but don't let that stop you from deciding on my behalf that that is what I am thinking.

The other 11 tend to be the smaller countries, the ones with the lower GDP because of their size. But its good to know that you understand these things.

I don't need to be presumptuous about your posts, I can read your previous outings, its quite easy.

I don't need to be presumptuous about your posts, I can read your previous outings, its quite easy.

So what exactly are my 'spurious reasons about immigrants' then?
I'm pretty sure I've been consistent throughout.

Immigration = good & necessary.
Immigration = net benefit to country.
Immigration = absorbed easily into areas with good employment opportunities.

Effects of uncontrolled & unsupported immigration of unskilled workers in areas of fewer employment opportunities = not good.

Catching up so haven't read all the posts.

Washington Post columnist thought 'Brexit means Brexit' has as much meaning as a parent saying, 'Bedtime means Bedtime'.

Apparently most over there can't believe there was no plan.

I'm amused to hear Liam Fox's view that our business people are 'lazy and fat', that's the people he (and others) told us before the referendum were so successful we have a glorious future.

By the way, I think people who decide to take Friday afternoons off to enjoy themselves, aren't being lazy.

I'll repeat part of another post elsewhere, Faridge make it quite clear if Remain had won 52/48, then it would be unfinished business and he'd strive for a second referendum.

Control? Currently we have the right to control our borders - 'we've' decided not to do it.

"Effects of uncontrolled & unsupported immigration of unskilled workers in areas of fewer employment opportunities = not good."

As pointed out immigrants tend not to go to areas of few employment opportunities. The North East population is 2.5% EU immigrants, and 5% overall, the same goes for most areas of fewer employment opportunities, low levels.

Again with this point that you make it has to be reiterated time and time again that immigration into an area does not cause unemployment in British nationals, it does cause a small lowering of wages in the bottom 10% of earners, but causes everyone else's to rise.

Its also been proved that the major cause of lower wage rises in the past decade has been the financial crisis and the slow recovery globally from this.

See even your attempted reasonable reasons are easy to dismiss.

And that's why posters just don't bother anymore.

Being summarily dismissed is not conducive to discussion and dialogue.

This was true of the debate prior to the referendum too - voters were sick & tired of their concerns & questions being dismissed airily with reams of 'FACTS!' and various experts with limited people skills or an apparent inability to engage and be interested in them trotted out with regularity.

Rather than persuading or informing, the actual outcome is wholesale disengagement.

That last post was in reply to:

See even your attempted reasonable reasons are easy to dismiss.

Well when you have made the same posts before, and then had the as part of the discourse it is pointed out to you that immigration is not to blame for the things that you have laid at its door, it becomes a revolving thing.

You say XYZ, it gets pointed out that all of the available evidence refutes your points, but you repeat them anyway.

Funny that when the FACTS suit your narrative, or when you think they do, you and the other brexiteers trot them out. Think about the £350 million figure, or the EU as a declining economic force, or on the impact on public services. Go back and think about how many of the facts used by the leave campaign were deliberately misleading.

The problem is that when you do listen to people's concerns regarding the EU you hear them citing the deliberately misleading information, which unforunately does make their concerns and opinions less valid. This idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid is utterly ridiculous, people in my native North East quoting being unable to get to the Doctor and getting jobs taken by immigrants, later forced to admit that immigration hadn't effected them like that shows this glaringly.

Funny that when the FACTS suit your narrative, or when you think they do, you and the other brexiteers trot them out. Think about the £350 million figure, or the EU as a declining economic force, or on the impact on public services. Go back and think about how many of the facts used by the leave campaign were deliberately misleading.

I don't recall ever stating or agreeing with any of those FACTS! in any of my posts or any of my rl conversations before or after the referendum.

The problem is that when you do listen to people's concerns regarding the EU you hear them citing the deliberately misleading information, which unforunately does make their concerns and opinions less valid. This idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid is utterly ridiculous, people in my native North East quoting being unable to get to the Doctor and getting jobs taken by immigrants, later forced to admit that immigration hadn't effected them like that shows this glaringly.

I didn't say that everyone's opinion (if wrong) was equally valid - I said everyone deserves to be listened to, then engaged with respectfully, rather than dismissed with exasperation by those with superior knowledge.

Your posting style is reminiscent of the arrogant experts that turned off so many voters; this is why posters on MN who voted Leave rarely bother to come on these threads now.

The outcome is that what is left is an echo chamber of posters with broadly similar beliefs & opinions re Brexit continually confirming each other's bias.

People are listened to, and engaged with, but when its the same reasons they come out with, and the counter points to these reasons are explained, but they get trotted out again it becomes frustrating.

The arrogant experts that turned off so many voters? You mean the ones that have so far been proved to be correct? For all the cheering of the recent economic data it simply corrected a massive fall after the vote, and we've had significant stimulus since then.

Your point about posters on MN, they don't bother to post, mostly cause they either find that their arguments for leaving don't pass muster, or as in the case of a good few of the most ardent leavers prior to the vote, they were obviously being paid to post.

You keep repeating this point about an echo chamber when its nothing of the sort and the confirmaton bias is shown on a far grander scale when the leavers come out congratulating each other on their posts, but fail to respond to anything that challenges their view.

You for example keep repeating this point about the EU being one rule fits all, when it wasn't and there are many clear examples of exemptions being made. You also say about "uncontrolled immigration" into areas with fewer job prospects when immigrants tend not to go to these places.

I'll stick with the North East as an example, the non UK born population of the North East rose by 60% during the years 2001-2011 and this sounds like a huge amount, until you realise that even with such a large increase this only makes up 5% of the population, or about 130,000 people in total who are not UK born. You can't say that freedom of movement has negatively effected these places, because they haven't got a sizeable enough proportion of a population to have had a detrimental effect.

reams of 'FACTS!' and various experts with limited people skills

What is wrong with FACTS for goodness sake? What is wrong with experts? What is wrong with lacking social skills?

Nothing is wrong with those things Elements, taken on their own merits.

But if you are trying to educate & persuade people who are not subject matter experts it is essential that you have the skills to engage and interact with all levels - social & educational.

If you don't, then your knowledge of the facts are undermined and rendered almost obsolete because it's inevitable that people will switch off pretty quickly.

It's my experience that on here it isn't the way that you go about this that matters.

Oh and in real life? The leave side didn't challenge people's beliefs, they confirmed.prejudices and made promises hey could never keep.to win votes, it wasn't at hearts and minds matter it was simply you are right and you can have it all.

so if the Brexit deal TM finally gives us isn't good enough, we vote in someone who will deliver.

So once again - what deal do you want TM to give you?This is a straight question. I don't think I am insulting anyone by asking.

But if you are trying to educate & persuade people who are not subject matter experts it is essential that you have the skills to engage and interact with all levels - social & educational.

Liam Fox take note. Get out there on that golf course on a Friday afternoon and start charming those captains of industry as you put in a few rounds, not tell them that they are lazy so and sos.

Agree re Liam Fox - utterly charmless & with his current attitude we'll be pissing in the wind.
Perfect example of how somebody's blundering ego ruins any message they hope to convey.

We have no more control now than we did in May.

International relations are always controlled by a complex web of interests, shared goals, shared enemies and power struggles. Changing the paper work doesn't change anything.

Looks like we have substantially less.