'Brexit means Brexit' - a political statement devoid of meaning

[xmasadsboohiss]

I'm not here to rehash the rights and wrongs of the Brexit vote - I was all for remaining but that's by the by. But TM's incessant repetition of 'Brexit means Brexit' is surely an insult to everyone's intelligence. No one knows what Brexit means that's the whole fecking point! I understand that she's trying to say there will be no second referendum (short sighted anyway precisely because no one knows what the negotiations will throw up) but Nigel Farage's idea of Brexit is I'm sure different from say a more moderate Tory's (?). You may as well try nailing jelly to the wall as define what it really means at this stage.

I love how on these threads some remainers are just so convinced that they are the fount of all truth because they are so intelligent, enlightened, objective and analytical and then just can't stop themselves resorting to unfactual, stereotypical, subjective and simplistic insults against leave voters.

So lack of engagement of some of the population in politics is just because they are thick and there's nothing good on the telly? Yes, I'm sure that's all there is to it. Insightful political analysis, well done.

It is a legitimate question to ask what you define as a 'good enough' Brexit, if you then declare that you will vote someone else in if TM can't deliver the goods. What do you want her to deliver?

Then you try to convince us that UKIP isn't racist. I don't know whether the sole UKIP MP is racist, (possibly not) but Farage, who is the visible face of UKIP, is totally racist, and has been so since his school days.

Still not answering any questions, yet confirming each others bias?

I think understanding how the attention of large populations is engaged and diverted is a crucial part of any analysis of political opinions and how they change.

Who are the people that have suggested that watching television, or becoming bored of political issues, is something thick people do?

The point made is valid - many of the people who voted in the referendum no longer care what happens with Brexit.

That number is only likely to grow as life moves on and new events and entertainments use up our available attention.

That has implications for what Brexit will look like when it is finally carried out.

We don't know what Brexit will look like because it hasn't actually happened yet. ( a minor point you appear to keep missing )

What the referendum has made perfectly clear though is the lefts sneering contempt for the lower working classes, or more precisely, anyone who isn't them. All this pseudo concern for the poor has been replaced by hatred of them, but of course that hatred was always there, it was just hidden pre-referendum. ( who needs the Tories eh? )

& I'm sorry I've ruined your glittering future by voting leave, but rest assured, I'm sure MN will still be going post Brexit so you can carry on spending all your time arguing on here. Your future is secure.

The point made is valid - many of the people who voted in the referendum no longer care what happens with Brexit.

Can I ask what is your evidence for this?

It's pretty empty and vacuous as an utterance I agree.

But I was also just waiting for a prominent proRemainer to come out with "It doesn't have to happen". And lo and behold Tony Blair did.

I voted remain, but all this stuff about "It's only advisory, wait until public opinion shifts old people died off and the usually disenfranchised go back to accepting being ignored and have another" is pretty disgusting too.

What does the PM have to deliver that will be "good enough"? And if it's not "good enough" and we vote them out, because Control, what would the next PM have to deliver to be "good enough"? What if "good enough" can't be achieved because (for example) it is mutually contradictory, or the nasty bullying rest of the world won't bow and scrape and give us whatever we demand, or there is isn't enough money in the economy to do it, etc? What does "Brexit means Brexit" actually mean then?

Thing is the disenfranchised didn't vote for brexit to get out of the EU, they voted to get rid of Cameron.

We don't know what Brexit will look like because it hasn't actually happened yet. ( a minor point you appear to keep missing )

surfer the minor point you spectacularly keep missing is you voted for something that you admit you have know idea how you want it to look.

The most you've ever said is for 'control on immigration' yet can't articulate why, then you say if you don't get what you want you'll be looking to UKIP to deliver.

The obvious conclusion from that is your sole motivation for voting leave is you just don't want 'foreigners' in the UK.

Well said.

The Japanese firms may, as they suggest, review their investments in the UK, and decide that since the terms are no longer the same, they will pull out. Will the fact that people have 'moved on' no longer matter, if the car industry in Sunderland goes down the pan?

It's worth asking - you can argue that they were always left behind and were shafted by Maggie Thatcher, but they, to my knowledge, never voted for Maggie or her party. They did vote for Leave despite Nissan warning of what might happen.

Neither we, nor Nissan, can say it will, but the fact that they went public about Brexit a few days ago, shows how seriously they view the situation.

Can I ask what is your evidence for this?

For a start, The fact that if anyone starts a thread on MN in any other area than here it virtually immediately gets reported and moved here is testament to the fact that many people just don't want to think about it anymore.

Can I ask what is your evidence for this?

"What kind of Brexit we get remains to be seen, ( which is why there's no point discussing it on here ) the negotiations will take months if not years ... the main victory has been achieved."

If one of the keenest and most vocal Leavers on this forum thinks this, I wonder what the general public thinks. Even the rest of MN seem to loathe any discussion of Brexit cluttering up their screen when we could be talking about more pressing issues like how many times a day we should sterilise our towels. But perhaps I'm mistaken and everybody is terribly concerned.

Yes 17m versions of Brexit so Brexit means 17 million things. It's almost inevitable that a significant proportion of those 17 million will be unhappy with the deal that's eventually bashed out. Add them to the 16 million odd who voted to Remain and suddenly the democratic majority ain't looking so solid. Which is PRECISELY why there should be a second referendum once the deal's been struck.

And there should be a Brexit means Brexit swear box in the House of Commons on the basis that they are all insulting the intelligence of the people who voted for them by repeating it ad nauseum.

You've asked all the disenfranchised that personally have you Smallfox?

Which is PRECISELY why there should be a second referendum once the deal's been struck.

That can't happen though because the no deal can be struck until we've invoked article 50, negiotated the terms of our exit over 2 year and then start on trade deals by which point it's too late, we'll be stuck with whatever we get.

I agree about the proportion of people being happy with the end result being very low but sadly, there isn't a great deal we can do about it except hope that reports like that from the Japanese government make more people realise what a recipe for disaster this all is and allow TM to sweep as much under the carpet as possible.

I wouldn't mind betting that the people working in Nissan in Sunderland are carrying on their day to day lives, so have not been affected yet.

I know people who work for BMW in Oxford. They told me that they had been told it was 'business as usual' for the time being, but the situation will be kept under review. As one person then said, if they pull out, that will be it, it will be 'clear your desk now.' People are not quite as relaxed about the future as they were 6 months ago. This was a strong Remain area, so Brexit is definitely not what people voted for, so there could potentially be a lot of anger if 'the factory' goes.

I have no idea what Brexit means. Before the referendum I would have said Brexit means:

More money for the NHS
Ensuring our own parliamentary sovereignty
Controlling immigration via a points based system.

Now:

The £350 million a week pledge lasted about 87 minutes. The slightly more reasonable £100 million has now also been shelved. So Brexit clearly doesn't mean more money for the NHS.

The decision to use prerogative powers to invoke article 50 and prevent the population having any further way to engage with the process suggests Brexit doesn't mean parliamentary sovereignty either. The rabid need to ensure that remainers (as the losers) are not allowed any further say in the process seems to trump everything, and goes against representative democracy. I didn't vote Tory but in any other debate, despite being the 'loser' can ask my MP to represent to my views.

The idea of a points based system has been shelved. So Brexit doesn't mean that.

Beats me.

It's all just treading on eggshells and don't startle the horses type behaviour. No sweeping statements or Edison's, inch forwards, push it to the back of the mind and maintain business as usual for as long as possible.

Entirely predictable outcome that.

TM is no fool - she work out a Brexit lite option for sure because anything else would be suicide.

Australia, which accounts for around 1% of the UK's trade, has said quite clearly that thrashing out a trade deal with the EU is more important to them than working one out with the UK. So even small trading partners aren't prioritising UK trade. Good on everyone who feels patriotic and proud of your country - there is so much to be proud of - but the days when half the globe was pink and everyone cow towed to the British Empire are over. Even members of the Commonwealth aren't that bothered.

Same with the US - cutting a trade deal with Asian countries is more important right now. The UK may not be at the back of the queue as Obama said, but it certainly isn't in front.

TM is no fool - she work out a Brexit lite option for sure because anything else would be suicide.

The problem is, whilst the flag flyers are still raving, Brexit-lite is suicide.

She needs to, and I think is, playing the long game so that, when some kind of consensus on what will be accepted as the definition of 'Brexit means Brexit' is found it is extremely watered down because a huge chunk of the 17m who voted for it realise the implications and, even if they don't outright admit it, they allow soft Brexit to happen.

Absolutey Bear it'll take time - but Brexit lite it will be.

^^ or, better still, allow A50 to never be invoked.