Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
OrsonWellsHat · 07/09/2016 20:31

Yes, you're probably right Sad

Bearbehind · 08/09/2016 08:17

Bear behind you want people in Sunderland to lose their jobs to punish them for voting for Brexit?

I want people who voted Leave to understand what damage they've done to the country. It seems that is only going to happen when they see beyond the flag flying rhetoric and actually start to feel the impact.

If you voted Leave even after being told your employer is very likely to look at alternative locations which are still in the EU in the event Leave won therefore now your job is on the line then I have absolutely no sympathy.

Peregrina · 08/09/2016 08:31

If you voted Leave even after being told your employer is very likely to look at alternative locations which are still in the EU in the event Leave won therefore now your job is on the line then I have absolutely no sympathy.

I have been reflecting on this and yes, I agree. The Nissan workers were warned that their employer could pull out, so yes, if they get what they voted for they need to accept the consequences.

I have much more sympathy for those who genuinely thought that more money would flow to the NHS and will be disappointed if their local hospital shuts, or their A & E or Maternity get downgraded. Which will partly be as a result of staff shortages because we are relying on EU workers.

PattyPenguin · 08/09/2016 09:47

Though I'm sure Leavers will argue that we can train UK nurses and doctors. This would take time and money.

They will argue that money is no problem, because we won't be sending £350 million to the EU and can use it for the NHS instead.

The problem for them is that the £350 million never existed and therefore cannot be available to spend on the NHS.

Peregrina · 08/09/2016 10:44

I think we should be training our own doctors and nurses and there is no shortage of applicants wanting to do the work. What is lacking is the political will to do so, never mind the time and money involved.

howabout · 08/09/2016 10:51

Interesting article in the Guardian today, although I think it has also been covered elsewhere

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/07/jeremy-corbyn-says-uk-should-reject-key-aspects-of-single-market-after-brexit?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today

Looking at JC's position re single market access and undesirable aspects of the EU like restrictions on state aid to key industries and the drive towards privatisation of the public sector. Seems highly relevant to a discussion about why car factory workers in Sunderland or steel workers in Wales might vote Brexit and protecting the NHS? If I were a Japanese car manufacturer in the UK I would certainly be making sure I was making as much noise as possible if it would encourage the govt to think more creatively about how to keep me here. I might also be questioning why UK consumers buy so many German cars when they could have home built Japanese ones. Not sure how well they currently compete in Germany, France and Italy?

Even farmers in Scotland seem on balance positive about Brexit as they would be trading uncertain subsidies for less restrictive regulation over what land they are allowed to farm in what way and what products they are allowed to market.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-37174389

Peregrina · 08/09/2016 10:59

My reading of the Scottish farmers situation is that there are decidedly mixed messages.

WrongTrouser · 08/09/2016 11:10

Bear and Peregrina

Your comments on Nissan jobs in Sunderland are very sad. You seem to be saying, not just that people need to accept the consequences of their actions (which is fair enough), but that you are actively hoping these consequences will be severe to support your views on membership of the EU. Please do correct me if I have misunderstood.

Badders123 · 08/09/2016 11:19

Train uk Drs and nurses?
They have just voted to get rid of the bursary for nurses!
They are running the NHS into the ground so they can privatise it....it's what they do.
Surely no one still thinks that ukip and the tories are committed to the NHS as it is? (I.e. Free) NF had made no secret of his wish for a private health care system. Do people really not listen? Or remember? It was filmed for gods sake!
I live near a very large Japanese car factory.
I give it 2 years.
I wonder how many of the workers voted leave?
(Quite a few I would posit as my county voted overwhelmingly to leave)
It baffles me that leavers are so very angry with remainers like me pointing out the mess we are/will be in. Project fear? Hardly.
Surely they should save their ire for the people who lied to them?
🤔

WrongTrouser · 08/09/2016 11:20

Sorry, just realised this is the Westministenders thread so please ignore my post.

Peregrina · 08/09/2016 11:32

You say, WrongTrouser
Your comments on Nissan jobs in Sunderland are very sad. You seem to be saying, not just that people need to accept the consequences of their actions (which is fair enough), but that you are actively hoping these consequences will be severe to support your views on membership of the EU. Please do correct me if I have misunderstood.

I had already said:
I don't want to see the people of Sunderland lose their jobs, because they were lied to. so I have to assume that you have misunderstood. I then went on to comment about those hoping for more money for the NHS.

At the same time we have seen so many comments from the Leave camp in the form of You lost, suck it up, Remoaners. So how about the Leave camp sucking it up, except it won't be Farage, Gove, Johnson and crew who do the sucking up because they lost, it will be the person struggling in Sunderland and other places.

Bearbehind · 08/09/2016 11:32

wrong I'm hoping people realise what a disaster Brexit is likely to be and do something about it.

I cannot comprehend the logic of someone voting Leave when they've been explicitly told it is very likely to result in their employer leaving the country, particularly in an area where there aren't many alternative job options.

If the threat of Nissan leaving the UK starts to convince people this is a really dangerous road we're treading and encourages them to change their opinion then I'm all for it.

prettybird · 08/09/2016 11:33

Nissan wouldn't be withdrawing operations from Sunderland out of spite but due to commercial reality - which is exactly what they said in advance.

They invested in Sunderland because it was within the EU and the Single Market. If we leave the Single Market (they could probably thole leaving the EU) then that basis would have gone. Sad

It's not that difficult to understand - unless you believe that the UK government's vision of Brexit will prevail: that we'll retain access to the single market, financial passporting without freedom of movement and unicorns and everlasting cake so that Nissan won't need to leave.

Peregrina · 08/09/2016 11:40

If the threat of Nissan leaving the UK starts to convince people this is a really dangerous road we're treading and encourages them to change their opinion then I'm all for it.

The problem is, how are people going to express that opinion?

The car industry was on its knees before the Japanese and Germans moved in, so how, suddenly we are going to find the investment to make good quality cars is beyond me.

Bearbehind · 08/09/2016 11:48

The problem is, how are people going to express that opinion?

By backing down from all this Land of Hope and glory nonsense and lobbying for the softest Brexit imaginable.

It seems to me that TM really doesn't think this is a good idea and is hoping that the support for Leave will diminish before she has to invoke A50.

Corcory · 08/09/2016 11:50

Badders - what has NF and UKIP got to do with government policy? They have one MP and are not in government.
I feel we really should train more nurses and doctors and I see no contradiction in me saying that even though I am a Conservative, leave voter. NF can say what he likes about his like of a private health insurance system but it isn't going to happen, he isn't in the government. I do not believe the suggestion that the Tory's want to privatise the NHS. There have been private companies providing services to the NHS for years but that has nothing to do with anyone having to pay at point of use.

tiggytape · 08/09/2016 11:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Motheroffourdragons · 08/09/2016 12:27

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

TheNorthRemembers · 08/09/2016 12:35

Did anyone read the article in Telegraph about work permit system and hard Brexit? Sorry, but I have already used up my free articles.

TheBathroomSink · 08/09/2016 12:49

Telegraph article here.

"In practice, this means EU citizens would be free to come to Britain for holidays and business on visa-free arrangements, but when it came to seeking work, they would need to apply for a permit just like non-EU nationals currently do."

As a side note, turn off cookies for the Telegraph, and you can read as much as you like.

whatwouldrondo · 08/09/2016 12:50

Another good FT opinion piece on Brexit which you can access here www.facebook.com/UKpolitics/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED&fref=nf

or by googling Opinion :Britain is falling into denial about Brexit.

I would much rather focus my ire, and hope that they will experience the consequences, on the comfortable middle classes of the Home Counties and elsewhere who voted us down the toilet out of abstract (for them) concepts like taking the country back and believing what they were told by the Telegraph, Times and Daily Fail

I am sure more that not a few of the Nissan voters, and those benefitting from EU funding in the Science and Higher Education sectors, did vote remain and they certainly don't deserve to lose their jobs. I can understand that the area does have a distinctive culture and proud working tradition and people have felt left behind by the direction in which the economy has taken the country as well as more recently witnessing, because there is a lot of underprivilege in the area, unfair share of austerity.

I think that is a lot different to sitting in your comfortable armchair in a nice homogenously white suburb / town / village where nothing much has changed in the last sixty years and railing against immigrants and that bloody Juncker and the fat cat EU bureaucrats and not caring about the consequences of voting leave.

TheBathroomSink · 08/09/2016 12:52

Telegraph notes that a work permit system might also allow for three categories, skilled, unskilled and seasonal, which may reduce the impact on the food industry.

WrongTrouser · 08/09/2016 12:52

Bear and Peregrina

Fair enough, I see what you are saying.

Dapplegrey1 · 08/09/2016 13:00

"believing what they were told by the Telegraph, Times and Daily Fail"
Whateouldrondo - so only the Guardian and the Independent tell the truth?

whatwouldrondo · 08/09/2016 13:10

Dapple We have had this discussion on another thread in the last couple of days. No, they also write from a certain perspective, I don't believe any journalist without taking into account the why, what, when and where of context (they teach you that in GCSE History these days) but at least it wasn't a perspective that helped influence 52% of the population to vote leave because they think they can have their cake and eat it and the world is full of unicorns.

Swipe left for the next trending thread