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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

OP posts:
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whatwouldrondo · 08/09/2016 13:16

Those three papers, the Telegraph, Fail and Times reach almost twice as many readers than the Guardian and Indies (44m /26m) which makes their perspective a lot more influential.

IAmNotTheMessiah · 08/09/2016 13:25

And, quite frankly, the readers of the Grauniad and Dependent are rather more likely to be using more than one source (and possibly their brains) to make up their minds.

In the old days, when I actually used to read the Grauniad, I remember they would put both sides of an issue. I remember an article by John Major sitting next to one by Roy Hattersley on the same issue.

TheNorthRemembers · 08/09/2016 13:31

TheBathroomSink Thank you.

Like IAmNotTheMessiah I would hope that Guardian readers are a bit more sceptical about news in general and try to different perspectives.

OlennasWimple · 08/09/2016 13:46

I think you are being very kind to the Grauniad, frankly - I've pretty much stopped reading it due to the increasingly shoddy journalism. I don't think I'm alone in that

IAmNotTheMessiah · 08/09/2016 14:18

Well, as I said, I don't read it any more, but I hope it hasn't lost all of it's integrity...

OlennasWimple · 08/09/2016 14:40

I feel like I am getting grouchy in my old age, but I despair of the political left's lack of effective opposition at the moment, and I similarly despair at the lack of decent journalism that should also be shining a light on the issues of the day.

Dapplegrey1 · 08/09/2016 14:41

"And, quite frankly, the readers of the Grauniad and Dependent are rather more likely to be using more than one source (and possibly their brains) to make up their minds".
What other source would they be using? Other left wing publications would be saying the same thing.
The Guardian's comments section is as heavily censored as pre glasnost Pravda so its readers won't be getting any other opinions from there.
Re the "possibly their brains" comment, that's a helluva generalisation. Do you really believe Guardian readers are more intelligent than Telegraph and Times readers? Or do you only mix with Guardian readers?

Peregrina · 08/09/2016 14:47

I have read the Telegraph article. My thoughts were that this won't in fact curb immigration at all. For the simple reason that with an aging population we need them.

So, the Govt pisses off the 16 million who didn't vote for Brexit, can't control immigration so pisses off the significant numbers of the 17 million who did vote for it, and in short spends a vast amount of money pleasing no one.

I think that is a lot different to sitting in your comfortable armchair in a nice homogenously white suburb / town / village where nothing much has changed in the last sixty years and railing against immigrants and that bloody Juncker and the fat cat EU bureaucrats and not caring about the consequences of voting leave.

I do so agree with this. I live in the South East myself, and know an awful lot of smug complacent women in the Andrea Leasdom mould. I do so wish that the BBC and Sky would go and interview some of them, instead of always concentrating on Sunderland. It's the Tory voters who swung it IMO.

twofingerstoGideon · 08/09/2016 14:56

I don't this Messiah is suggesting Guardian/Independent readers are more intelligent, Dappled. But I think they are quite possibly less narrow-minded. Grin

twofingerstoGideon · 08/09/2016 15:03

I feel like I am getting grouchy in my old age, but I despair of the political left's lack of effective opposition at the moment, and I similarly despair at the lack of decent journalism that should also be shining a light on the issues of the day.
I agree with you. I think shoddy journalism is taking over the world. It seems to be all about the clickbait now. However, the broadsheets (left and right-leaning)still have a way to descend before they reach the depths of the Mail, Express, Sun etc.
And as for parliamentary opposition, apart from the SNP, Caroline Lucas and one or two other exceptions, there doesn't seem to be much.

DoinItFine · 08/09/2016 15:04

The Telegraph is my go to newspaper source for political news now.

The guardian and independent are rarely worth my time.

Although the guardian's liveblogging can be worthwhile.

I'm a total pinko, but I still want my news to tell me things I didn't already know.

Bearbehind · 08/09/2016 15:14

To be fair though, when David Davies and Theresa May can't even agree the party line on something as fundamental as remaining in the single market or not, no one else has a chance of correctly reporting the facts or being able to ascertain our position and direction do they? Hmm

Kaija · 08/09/2016 15:19

The Telegraph has the best gardening pages, I'll give it that.

Somewhat bizarrely given all its Brexit cheerleading, it carried this piece immediately after the ref which was one of the bleakest assessments of our post-Leave-vote state that I saw anywhere:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/britain-votes-to-leave-the-eu-what-happens-now-that-brexit-is-a/

whatwouldrondo · 08/09/2016 15:21

It has really come home to me since studying an area of the world at Master's level that you cannot really ever take any journalism at face value, but I would say that on China the Guardian at least does tend to have journalists on the ground who know what they are talking about, as the BBC has Carrie Gracie, and regularly commission others like Jonathan Fenby and Isobel Hilton who are widely respected. There is an article today on the anniversary of Mao's death and the rise of neo Maoism, it is obviously just touching the surface, but at least they have talked to some of the most respected academics like Dikotter and Wasserstrom and a local journalist Yang Jisheng and tried to achieve some balance in the article as opposed to resorting to the easy stereotype. Below the line is of course filled with 50 centers so useful discussion gets drowned out pretty quickly but I gather that has happened in relation to Brexit on Mumsnet too.

It is therefore relatively rarely that I find myself shouting at the computer screen, whereas when I read a Telegraph article on China I almost always do because they cannot resist resorting to the easy stereotypes and articles of the "they all eat dog penis's" variety, except for, or maybe especially when, they are trying to sell China tours to the grey pound.

On Brexit I am getting a bit fed up of the Telegraph AND Guardian picking on every new development of which, like in a phoney war, few are actually significant and signal what is to come, and spin it to spell unicorns or disaster. The Eu army one yesterday Dapple was a classic example where the Telegraph took the fact of a "military plan" that given the timing must have escaped a UK veto, and the different mutterings of some of the 27 countries and then spun it with the help of a pompous arch Brexiteer into the imminent threat of an EU army, speculating on a prospect so unlikely as to be stepping over the line into misleading. It only took a google and reading two other articles to begin to discern the reality behind the story........

Dapple It doesn't take many minutes to read articles written from different perspectives across the press to arrive at your own view, surely what this thread is all about. I tend to think that people who stick to one newspaper do so because they want the comfort of having all their prejudices confirmed and no challenge to their world view.

whatwouldrondo · 08/09/2016 15:24

Agree on the gardening pages though.....

Peregrina · 08/09/2016 15:50

The pages I turn to first in the Guardian are the puzzles at the back. Currently I am finding the FT articles the most balanced.

Dapplegrey1 · 08/09/2016 16:01

"Below the line is of course filled with 50 centers so useful discussion gets drowned out pretty quickly but I gather that has happened in relation to Brexit on Mumsnet too."
Whatwould -
What does filled with 50 centres mean? I realise it's a typo but I can't work it out (because I'm on strong painkillers for toothache which have made me slow witted - although as a Brexit voter I realise on mumsnet I am considered slow witted already).
I don't read the Guardian because they use objection to inequality - perfectly reasonable - as an excuse to say very spiteful things.

whatwouldrondo · 08/09/2016 16:10

Dapple 50 centers (I did correct it and it has taken two more attempts to get it past autocorrect!)

Kaija · 08/09/2016 16:17

Never heard them called that before. Interesting article here:

www.newstatesman.com/politics/politics/2012/10/china%E2%80%99s-paid-trolls-meet-50-cent-party

Here's the Russian version:

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house

If only we knew who else was doing it.

whatwouldrondo · 08/09/2016 16:24

Sorry my phone is really playing up

www.newstatesman.com/politics/politics/2012/10/china’s-paid-trolls-meet-50-cent-party

They are very easy to spot by the hyperbole....

whatwouldrondo · 08/09/2016 16:25

Ah you beat my phone to it!

DoinItFine · 08/09/2016 16:31

Apparently Lord Desai (a Labour peer) has brought a bill repealing the fixed term parliaments act to the House of Lords.

twofingerstoGideon · 08/09/2016 18:33

That New Statesman article is really interesting. I'm willing to bet it's not just China. I don't want to resurrect the suggestions on these boards that prior to the referendum there were rather a lot of prolific pro-Brexit posters who were never seen before or since... and one would hate to think that anything similar is going on in the comments sections of news sites or Facebook pages. Oh no. Definitely not.

merrymouse · 08/09/2016 18:45

I like Michael Deacon in the Telegraph and John Crace in the Guardian (posted links to articles by both earlier), so I am either very open minded or cherry picking my columnists - I suspect the latter.

Kaija · 08/09/2016 18:46

I certainly think that this is a trick that Arron Banks and leave.eu would have been unlikely to miss, and mumsnet would be a target for sure.

There's an article here on UKIP trolls, but this looks to be the not-very-organised or professional end of things. In fact I'm not completely sure they understand the meaning of "troll" but who knows?

www.ukipdaily.com/ukip-trolls-take-bow/