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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

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Thread gallery
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TheBathroomSink · 27/09/2016 22:20

I was just reading that FT article Red - but I think if by some chance he makes it through the first round, the idea on Turkey negotiating entry at the same time we are looking to find a way not to leave is going to be a deal-breaker for a lot of Leave voters. Especially when NS phrases it in a way which makes it seem like the EU needs the UK to stay in order to finance a Turkish accession.

Peregrina · 27/09/2016 22:33

This sounds like hot air from Sarkozy. I didn't think that negotiations with Turkey were serious - they have been trying to get into the EU for as long as I can remember, and failing dismally. The recent attempted coup won't have improved matters.

RedToothBrush · 27/09/2016 22:53

Turkey joining the EU is a non-starter as far as the French public are concerned. Public opinion is dead set against it. The French put it into law that they had to pass a referendum to allow Turkey to join the EU.

As was said during the referendum debate there is no chance of Turkey joining the EU as they don't met the requirements to do so. (And they have gone backwards on this since the coup)

The hot air isn't about Turkey joining the EU at all. Its about trying to get Turkey back into in the EU sphere of influence with the carrot. Boris has been saying similar today hasn't he?

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Peregrina · 27/09/2016 23:06

As opposed to the Russian sphere of influence?

TheBathroomSink · 28/09/2016 00:03

Yes, Boris had been saying similar, but I would not be at all surprised if he's saying it in order to harden the resolve for brexit.

I didn't know the French had managed to get a requirement for a referendum passed, though. I would guess, though, that Boris is either equally ignorant or is choosing to ignore it. I could also see the eu being tempted to soften the demands turkey has to fulfil, although that's irrelevant given the French referendum requirements.

But mostly, I think Turkey is being used by Boris - to show the eu he's reasonable and wants to be helpful, and to show the UK why brexit has to happen.

mathanxiety · 28/09/2016 04:45

Turkey's position vis a vis the EU is illustrated with the 'I can’t accept to lose Europe’s second-largest economy while we are negotiating with Turkey over its EU membership.' comment.

Boris has no hope at all of helping Turkey's hopes (if they even exist any more) of joining the EU. I don't think Turkey ever really wanted to be tied down by membership of the EU. It has always been Turkey's game to stand aloof and sell co-operation to the highest bidder or to the party most likely to assist in a crisis. That party today is Russia, maybe on both counts.

Ukraine is enough of a basket case to warrant keeping out in the semi frozen wasteland and Turkey isn't that much better. The EU can't handle two at a time (plus Greece) and at the same time lose the UK, with Italy potentially wobbling too and the DeutscheBank experiencing a hiccup.

Sarkozy's 'And if it’s no [in a second referendum], then it’s a real no. You’re in or you’re out' is a bit redundant. People who are actually in power in France and in Germany and in Brussels have said the same of this referendum. It is also redundant because the government has said (and it's one of the few things that has been stated definitively) there won't be a second referendum. The government is loath to even debate Brexit in Parliament.

RedToothBrush · 28/09/2016 10:05

Jim Waterson ‏@jimwaterson

Corbyn: I won't campaign against immigration
Reeves: Immigration could lead to race riots
Same party, somehow.

www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/corbyn-immigration-speech?utm_term=.cux72B0RY#.qcqvWMz5b
Corbyn

www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/brexit-riots-could-break-out-unless-eu-deal-curbs-immigration-top-labour-mp-warns/ar-BBwIgrO?ocid=spartandhp
Reeves

www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2016/09/28/rachel-reeves-comments-on-immigration-could-encourage-hate-a
Why Rachel Reeves comments could encourage hate crime.

LeanneWood ‏@LeanneWood
I shouldn't have to make a statement like this in response to a Labour politician. Dark days.
www.plaid2016.wales/immigration_mewnfudo
Plaid respond to Reeves comments in a statement.

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RedToothBrush · 28/09/2016 10:27

www.facebook.com/GuyVerhofstadt/posts/10155001346840016
Guy Verhofstadt's Facebook. He talked about Johnson and Fox yesterday. Its not complimentary.

The comments are pretty much nothing but Brits apologising for the stupidity of their leaders and country.

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jaws5 · 28/09/2016 11:07

Absolutely incredible, what is Rachel Reeves playing at and how is this allowed in the Labour Party? I must say good for Corbyn for making his position clear, but surely this is too big an issue to disagree on. I am staring in disbelief at what I am seeing happening in this country.

Matthew Parris spoke to BBC last night about how Labour could seize the opportunity to create a credible opposition to this madness, as the tories are divided. This coalition would be backed by Lib Dems, SNP, Greens and many moderate Conservative MPs. Why aren't they? because many Labour MPs are appeasing racism and xenophobia. I just can't believe my eyes!

prettybird · 28/09/2016 11:57

I love the way that Guy Verhostadt doesn't actually say anything negative about Davis or Fox - he just describes what they're doing/did and then simply says, "Politics never fails to surprise me!" Grin

Damned with faint praise Wink

RedToothBrush · 28/09/2016 12:08

Verhostadt is what is known as a 'diplomat'. One that acts 'professionally'.

Anyway, BIG breaking news on the crowdfunded a50 case:

David Allen Green ‏@DavidAllenGreen

  1. Some significant Brexit litigation news....
  2. The government is opposing the Article 50 litigation. But it is refusing to publish its case.
  3. This is plainly wrong. This is a public interest case, if anything is. Public money at stake. Key to future of UK. And so on.
  4. But the government did not want the public to know its legal case for refusing to give the parliament the decision on Article 50.
  5. As the government's case is about the "prerogative" power of PM, also important that public knows scope of this power.
  6. The "prerogative" of course is a legal fiction - it just means executive power with legal effects with no visible legal basis.
  7. Anyway, this refusal was challenged by the fine lawyers at @BindmansLLP and late yesterday...
  8. ... a judge ruled in favour of @BindmansLLP, The government's legal case must be disclosed.
  9. The government's legal case on Article 50 is now published, see @JolyonMaugham's blogpost
waitingfortax.com/2016/09/23/article-50-your-right-to-know/ 10. Well done to @BindmansLLP for forcing disclosure of the government's legal case on Article 50. Hugely important.

Breaking: HMG's legal case against giving parliament a vote on Article 50 :
Government defence of using Royal Prerogative for a50

Ordered by court yesterday.

#Brexit

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prettybird · 28/09/2016 12:12

If the UK is going to continue to insist that we don't "need" a written constitution, then it is all the more important that its legal positions are public as that's all we, the public, gave to go on.

I'm glad the court refused to accept that the government's case should be kept secret.

lalalonglegs · 28/09/2016 12:39

It could be wishful interpretation on my part but, having skim-read the government's defence, it doesn't seem particularly robust. They appear simply to be saying: "Don't have to! Don't have to! Can't make us!"

RedToothBrush · 28/09/2016 12:48

I'm reading through the 20page government defence atm. A few things that stick out to me.

Point 5 (5)
To the extent that the claim is justiciable and within the proper bounds of the Court's role, the exercise by the Crown of its prerogative power in the circumstances of the present case is consistent with domestic constitutional law. It is not precluded by or inconsistent with the ECA or any other statue. Nor would the commencement of the process of withdrawal from the EU itself change any common law or statute or any customs of the realm. Any such changes are a matter for future negotiations, Parliamentary scrutiny, and implementation by legislation.

NOTE: Davies speech about Brexit said that parliament would NOT be involved in this process though

Point 5 (6)
The lawfulness of the use of the prerogative is not impacted by the devolution legislation. The conduct of foreign affairs is a reserved matter such that the devolved legislatures do not have competence over it. Whilst there are provisions in the devolution legislation which envisage the application of EU law, they add nothing to the Lead Claimant's case.

NOTE: errrrr The Good Friday Agreement? It is a matter for the devolved assembly, isn't it?

Point 10.
It is open to the Lead Claimant to contend (subject to the arguments below) that the Government cannot validly decide that the UK should leave the EU, and tereby withdraw from the EU Treaties, without the processes of an Act of Parliament. That is in substance what is argued in the Grounds (albeit) couched in terms of the article 50 (2) notification). However, the Government has made it clear that it respects the outcome of statutory referendum and sees no legal basis to prevent it from giving to this by taking the procedural step under Article 50 (2) to start the process of withdrawal.

NOTE: This a50 challenge had 88 points saying to the contrary. I would say that if just ONE of these provides a legal basis to stop the procedural step under article 50 (2) then the government's defence falls apart?

Point 16 In response to the challenge that the royal prerog can't be used to remove rights:
There are cases in which a specific impact upon a specific individual may require the Court to examine more closely an area which would ordinarily be non-justiciable, but those situations cannot be "abstract": Shergill v Khaira [2014] UKSC 33; [2015] ACat #43. Yet this challenge could hardly be more abstract. It is asserted that individual rights will be infringed or undermined by notification under Article 50 but no particular rights are relied upon by the Lead Claimant and there is presently no way of knowing precisely which, if any, rights or obligations will be removed, varied or added to by the process of withdrawing from the EU. The notification has not been issued; the eventual outcome will be dependent upon the effect of the negotiations in which the Government will engage. As result, this case is one which falls squarely with the "forbidden area" explained in Shergill at #42 and exemplified by CCSU

NOTE: Translation because 'Brexit means Brexit' has been deliberately not defined by the government, we have not revealed which rights might be affected, so triggering a50 can not be viewed to be removing rights, as we haven't decided which rights will be affected. The Royal Prerog can therefore be used despite the fact that it can't be used in situations which remove rights precisely because we've been devious buggers and been very careful in not showing our hand about which rights might be removed. In short 'Brexit means Brexit' until we get a50 through the court...

Point 48
Mr Pigney raises the impact of the devolution legislation. The conduct of foreign relations is a matter expressly reserved such that the devolved legislatures have no competence over it.
(1) In Scotland, see paragraph 7(1) of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998: "International relations, including relations with territories outside the United Kingdom, the European Union (and their institutions) and other international organisations, regulation of international trade, and international development assistance and co-operation are reserved matters".
(2) In materially the same terms for NI, see paragraph 3 of Schedule 2 to the Northern Ireland Act 1998.
(3) In Wales, foreign relations is not a matter positively allocated to the Welsh Assembly under section 108 and Schedule 7 to the Government of Wales Act 2006.
Note: I can't see any reference to the GFA. Whether this is because this relates to rights so they don't want to prejudice that part of their defence or because they don't have a response, I'm not sure

Chrissie Caulfield @Chrissie_c
@DavidAllenGreen Hang on. It's too complex for parliament to understand ... but not for a referendum?
David Allen Green ‏@DavidAllenGreen
This is a fair description of the government's Article 50 position: too complex for parliament, but not a for referendum question.

Hmmm.

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RedToothBrush · 28/09/2016 12:49

Sorry, my 'links' above are not links. I was trying to make a note in brackets and they have come out as links! I suppose that makes them clearer which is what I was trying to achieve.

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RedToothBrush · 28/09/2016 13:11

David Allen Green ‏@DavidAllenGreen
This is paragraph 5(3) of the government's legal case against parliament having say on Article 50.

Seriously.

(3) The decision to withdraw from the EU is not justiciable. Like the decision to join the EEC (as it then was), it is a matter of the highest policy reserved to the Crown. Equally, the appropriate point at which the UK should begin the procedure required by Article 50(2) to give effect to that decision (that is, the notification) is a matter of high, if not the highest, policy; a polycentric decision based upon a multitude of domestic and foreign policy and political concerns for which the expertise of Ministers and their officials are particularly well suited and the Courts ill-suited.

Steve Peers ‏@StevePeers
Incredibly weak. The domestic effect of EEC/EU law in UK legal system stems from an Act of Parliament, not a policy decision by the Crown.

HA! The expertise of Ministers?! Shall we talk about Boris and Liam again? Or go back to Andrea's display of professionalism and expertise?

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RedToothBrush · 28/09/2016 13:31

aberdeenunilaw.wordpress.com/2016/07/11/article-50-the-articles-of-union-and-using-the-royal-prerogative-to-end-the-union-between-scotland-and-england/

Blog which argues that if royal prerog is used to invoke a50, then Scotland wouldn't need a referendum to declare independence, as they could just walk away.

I suspect it would be much more complex than that (like Brexit of course) but the concept is eyebrow raising.

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Unicornsarelovely · 28/09/2016 13:50

Point 5(2): the claim conflates the process of notification... with the decision to be notified(...) namely the UK's decision to leave the EU as articulated in the referendum result.

Wasn't the referendum advisory only when it was established? i.e. the people may have advised on their preferred outcome, but the decision to implement it is entirely within the Govt's control.

missmoon · 28/09/2016 14:10

Unicornsarelovely yes, that's what I thought too. The referendum is advisory in law (regardless of what individual Leave campaigners told the public), and only parliament can decide whether to act on the referendum result. The government case seems quite weak to me, but then I'm not a lawyer so maybe I'm missing something!

RedToothBrush · 28/09/2016 14:31

I think we are being given a demonstration in how what you can do politically and what you can do legally are not the same...

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-28/nordic-leaders-seek-eu-pact-over-post-brexit-power-play
Nordic Block form fact to make up for the vacuum created by the UK going AWOL on other matters whilst it sorts its own shit out.

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/715172/Sadiq-Khan-defy-Brexit-London-open-visas-migrants-mayor-theresa-may-boris-johnson-trade
The Express are reporting that the London Mayor will 'defy Brexit' and issue work visas for London regardless of controls on immigration.

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Unicornsarelovely · 28/09/2016 14:36

I am a lawyer, although I haven't done proper public law for a long long time! My guess is that by hinging it all on the royal prerogative, the govt are effectively making sure that any final decision against the government is not taken until the Supreme Court (i.e. that whatever happens, there will be a series of appeals unless the crowdfunded challenge gives up).

With the best will in the world, the Supreme Court aren't going to get to this until early next year and I suspect a large part of the Govt intention is the point will be academic at that stage so they'll "know for next time".

It is quite unnerving how often that happens in litigation with the government...

howabout · 28/09/2016 14:36

Interesting article on The House of Lords Constitution Committee Reports on Article 50. Puts both points of view in a legal and practical context.

ukconstitutionallaw.org/2016/09/13/mark-elliott-and-stephen-tierney-the-house-of-lords-constitution-committee-reports-on-article-50/

(Stephen Tierney was a key adviser in the mechanics of the Scottish referendum. He doesn't envisage NS unilaterally declaring Independence Grin)

TheNorthRemembers · 28/09/2016 14:39

There is definitely a kitchen cabinet and Johnson is not part of it link

RedToothBrush · 28/09/2016 14:39

www.ft.com/content/825a19b6-8568-11e6-a29c-6e7d9515ad15?ftcamp=published_links/rss/brexit/feedproduct

The new government department in charge of Brexit is poised to double in size as it begins a recruitment drive to bring in 200 staff from the private sector.

^The Department for Exiting the EU (Dexeu), headed by David Davis, has already hired 200 staff from within the civil service but needs to scale up as it prepares for detailed negotiations over the form Brexit will take.
One person at the new ministry said Dexeu had attracted more than 250 applications for 20 senior job vacancies, despite reports that civil servants were reluctant to work on Brexit.^

www.dailyreckoning.co.uk/economy/get-ready-for-the-next-stage-of-brexit/
“You know that statistic you keep reading about how the UK only has X amount of trade negotiators?”
“Yeah?”
“Well one of them’s me. I’m counted in that total. And I’m not really a trade negotiator.”
I had this conversation a few weeks back with a source in Whitehall.
The situation’s not as stark as this makes it sound, though.
You only need a negotiator right towards the end of the process.
Before that, it’s years of preliminaries, as each country studies the other’s economy to figure out what they might get and what they might give to get it.
For that, you need specialists in the relevant industries.
Someone to study their agriculture, say, or the set-up of their car industry, their banking sector – basically the areas that will be pertinent to the eventual negotiation.
We don’t need an army of skilled negotiators to begin that process.

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ManonLescaut · 28/09/2016 15:08

You need an army of specialists...