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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

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RedToothBrush · 27/09/2016 13:13

Well THIS is good. From The Telegraph live feed:

12:33pm Labour conference backs calls for Brexit deal referendum
The Labour conference has voted in favour of a motion backing the potential for a second EU referendum.

The motion has largely gone under the radar but was passed unanimously and it says that the UK should hold onto the option of remaining in the European Union if Theresa May's post-Brexit deal is not favourable. That decision could be decided in another referendum, the motion said.

It read:
"[Conference] recognises that many of those who voted to leave the EU were expressing dissatisfaction with EU or national policy and were voting for change, but believes that unless the final settlement proves to be acceptable then the option of retaining EU membership should be retained. The final settlement should therefore be subject to approval, through parliament and potentially through a general election, or a referendum."

UNANIMOUS.

Interesting.

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prettybird · 27/09/2016 13:13

Does a50 fall under English or Scottish law? Or both? Is there therefore a potential clash in the works there too?

No idea - do International treaties come under a single country's law? Is it not the enabling legislation that results from the particular treaty that has to be written according to the relevant country's law?

RedToothBrush · 27/09/2016 13:14

Although the Telegraph then point out:

In practice this does not make it official Labour Party policy, nor is Jeremy Corbyn likely to take it any further, but it is significant for those who backed rival candidate Owen Smith who had advocated a second referendum.

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SapphireStrange · 27/09/2016 13:20

nor is Jeremy Corbyn likely to take it any further,

That's the crux of it, isn't it? Sad I'll write to my MP about it but she is an arch-Corbynista.

RedToothBrush · 27/09/2016 13:31

Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham 17 minutes ago
Jeremy Wright will lead for Govt in A50 challenge. He was a criminal practitioner outside London; was awarded silk only when appointed AG.

Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham 10m
Coming at it afresh, you might almost think the Government was quite content to lose the case...

Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham 5m
No axe to grind with Wright. But putting him up against Pannick is like matching me with Peak Tiger Woods because I'm handy at mini-golf.

Either that or no one else was prepared to do it, as they think its so unlikely that the government will win and didn't want to be associated with it. Or no one who has the ability to win the case wants to support Brexit. Or the government is simply completely inept.

Also being reported in the Independent
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-tells-deputy-first-minister-when-article-50-will-be-triggered-a7332801.html
Theresa May told Martin McGuinness a50 would be triggered in the spring.

Though of course it also says this in the article:
There is growing pressure from senior EU politicians for Brexit to be completed before the European Parliament elections in June 2019 which would mean invoking article 50 in the first half of next year

May, therefore, can't say or do anything other than suggest early next year as she is caught between the Brexiteers and the EU both demanding a short timetable. This is why she's not saying it publically. Its easier to retract the comment made privately because of circumstance changing...

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Peregrina · 27/09/2016 13:53

As one commentator says: "So she can tell the IRA, but she can't tell me. Do you know, that makes me ever so slightly miffed."

I don't suppose that's the only person annoyed. She clearly told Tusk who obligingly spilt the beans.

SapphireStrange · 27/09/2016 13:58

I think the A50 stuff is all gossip and/or people trying to bounce her into fixing or publicly announcing a date.

TheBathroomSink · 27/09/2016 14:42

Whilst I think Johnson is generally an idiot who will say just about anything he thinks, as he thinks it, I'm not sure his point on Turkey is completely out there. I read it as he's quite happy for Turkey to join the EU, and will help them achieve that, because the UK will no longer be in the EU.

On a date for a50, I'll believe it when she does it. Until then, it's her telling everyone what they want to hear, or people trying to force her hand by declaring that she's told them something. That goes for Fox/Johnson/Davis too - if I was in charge of that lot, I'm not sure I'd tell them where the coffee machine was.

RedToothBrush · 27/09/2016 14:43

Brexit means Brexit... er.... what's that

Oh Fuck, it means more than one thing!?

Different people think it means different things? Surely not.

I didn't see that coming. At all. 18% of all people think that we can have Unicorns and Cake. That's 40% of the Leave Vote.

Still. Fuck, fuck, fuck.

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.
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RedToothBrush · 27/09/2016 14:53

if I was in charge of that lot, I'm not sure I'd tell them where the coffee machine was.

Did the Brexit department get a building or are they still meeting in Starbucks?

Liam Fox is at it again:
Dept. for Int. Trade ‏@tradegovuk
.@LiamFoxMP spoke @wto to support launch of their World Trade Report 2016: SME participation in international #trade
www.gov.uk/government/speeches/launch-of-the-world-trade-report-2016-inclusive-trade-and-smes

Steve Peers ‏@StevePeers
^One policy nugget amidst the waffle of Fox's speech: UK will retain same WTO commitments post-Brexit it has as EU member. Some thoughts
This will depend on UK/EU agreeing to divide up between them EU-wide tariff quotas for imports and exports with non-EU countries. Then the non-EU countries must also agree to this allocation. Also possible that non-EU countries raise other quibbles. But it's unfortunate that Fox fails to understand that currently EU, not UK, has WTO goods schedules and ratified WTO trade facilitation protocol^

facepalm

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PattyPenguin · 27/09/2016 15:00

The WTO page on the UK entitled "MEMBER INFORMATION
United Kingdom and the WTO"

www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/countries_e/united_kingdom_e.htm

It reads:
"Goods schedules and tariff data
...
•For current situation of goods schedules see the European Communities
• The United Kingdom's Uruguay Round goods schedules are included in those of the European Communities (zip format, 759KB)
•See the bound tariffs at HS 6-digit subheading level for the European Communities
•See the latest available MFN applied tariffs at HS 6-digit subheading level for the European Communities
•Tariff profile: See tariff profile for the European Communities

Services schedules and MFN exemption
• United Kingdom is included in services schedules for the European Communities
...
Trade Policy Reviews of the United Kingdom back to top

The United Kingdom is included in TPRs of the EU/EC"

Would someone like to send a link to Liam?

tiggytape · 27/09/2016 15:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheBathroomSink · 27/09/2016 15:07

Would someone like to send a link to Liam?

He'd probably struggle to open it. I'd suggest plastering it to the side of a bus as the better option...

GloriaGaynor · 27/09/2016 15:12

No I think it's more likely to mean that the Telegraph is more pro-Brexit than its readers. And that given that it has the highest socio-demographic of fhe Brexit papers, its readers are more aware of the complications the vote has caused.

Readers happy with the outcome are just as likely to express satisfaction in the Telegraph as any other poll. While Brexit won A50 hasn't been actioned and there are lots of antsy Brexiteers who fear it may not be. (In the Tories for example).

RedToothBrush · 27/09/2016 16:20

More on Fox today:
www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/09/27/fox-slip-up-at-wto-shows-he-has-no-brexit-plan

David Allen Green ‏@DavidAllenGreen
Fox: "The UK will continue to uphold these [WTO/EU trade] commitments when we leave the European Union."

Then what is the point of Brexit?

Fox now saying UK will continue with WTO/EU trade commitments, and Hammond guaranteeing EU funding until 2020.

What is the point of Brexit?

At this rate we are not going to get a Hard Brexit or a Soft Brexit, but a BEANO Brexit.

Brexit Existing As Name Only.

Or BEANO, for short.

Its a disgraceful shambles isn't it?

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Unicornsarelovely · 27/09/2016 17:00

I was just going to post the beans Brexit link... Optimistically it may just never happen!!!

TheForeignOffice · 27/09/2016 17:40

Local reporting on Boris's visit to Ankara:

www.hurriyetdailynews.com/uks-johnson-voices-hopes-for-jumbo-free-trade-deal-with-turkey-praising-turkish-made-products.aspx?pageID=238&nID=104319&NewsCatID=344

“What I hope for is a jumbo free trade deal between the United Kingdom and Turkey,” Johnson told reporters at a joint news conference with Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu.

RedToothBrush · 27/09/2016 18:05

A Brexit Model: The Continental Partnership
bruegel.org/2016/09/the-continental-partnership-proposal-a-reply-to-five-main-criticisms/#.V-qU1DtusZ9.twitter

Its a soft Brexit option.

The CP would therefore consist of two groups of countries. On the one side are the EU member states, which share supranational institutions and participate fully in all EU policies, including the single market’s four freedoms. On the other side are those outside the EU, like the UK and possibly other European countries such as Norway, Switzerland, Turkey or Ukraine, which would not join supranational institutions and would not participate in all EU policies, especially the freedom of movement for workers. The CP would be governed by a new inter-governmental system. Its aim would be to seek not only deep economic integration (with limited labour mobility) between all the participating countries, but also potentially close cooperation in matters of foreign policy, security and defence.

Sounds potentially like the two tier system, that Guy Verhofstadt was talking about.

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RedToothBrush · 27/09/2016 18:06

Oh and its a blog on Bruegel which is a Brussels based think tank.

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ManonLescaut · 27/09/2016 20:07

Bruegel's v good.

ManonLescaut · 27/09/2016 20:10

But it's unfortunate that Fox fails to understand that currently EU, not UK, has WTO goods schedules and ratified WTO trade facilitation protocol

Not for the first time, if one didn't laugh one could cry.

HyacinthFuckit · 27/09/2016 20:29

I don't think the significance of the Telegraph poll is in showing a swing from a tiny minority in favour of leaving to a tiny minority in favour of remaining. Rather, it's the vast, unmarriable divisions in what Leave voters want. And the fact that one in five of those surveyed still appears to believe in the impossible.

lalalonglegs · 27/09/2016 20:42

This is interesting. According to emails that have been leaked by the Lib-Dems, towards the end of the coalition government, Theresa May constantly tried to water down reports that were prepared on the benefits of free movement. Her agenda was that benefits tourism was a real problem in the UK despite these reports showing little evidence for it.

prettybird · 27/09/2016 20:43

....but don't you realise that unicorns and everlasting cake exist? Wink

RedToothBrush · 27/09/2016 21:55

www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/legal-challenge-to-ask-if-belfast-agreement-may-trump-brexit-1.2807742
First hurdle in one of the NI a50 challenges has been successful. The government wanted to limit the scope of the challenge but the judge has ruled in favour of it saying that issues specific to Northern Ireland could “fall between the cracks” during actions due to come before the English and Welsh courts. Thus meaning that the cross party opposition to a50 in NI can present a fuller case.

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
Sarkozy intriguing -May 8th 2017 he promises to come to UK as Pres, to offer new treaty & opportunity to stop Brexit
www.ft.com/content/5763950a-84d4-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5?ftcamp=published_links/rss/world_europe/feedproduct#axzz4LTssqwly
This is important I feel so I have copied and pasted some of the article below in case some of you get paywalled:
Nicolas Sarkozy would offer Britain a chance to reverse its Brexit vote by negotiating a new treaty for the bloc with Germany immediately after winning back the French presidency next year, he said on Tuesday

Speaking to business leaders in Paris, the former French president said that if elected, he would fly to Berlin with a draft of new EU treaty the day after the second ballot of the presidential election to secure the support of German chancellor Angela Merkel. On May 8, the day after, he would travel to London.

^“I would tell the British, you’ve gone out, but we have a new treaty on the table so you have an opportunity to vote again,” Mr Sarkozy said. “But this time not on the old Europe, on the new Europe. Do you want to stay? If yes, so much the better. Because I can’t accept to lose Europe’s second-largest economy while we are negotiating with Turkey over its EU membership. And if it’s no, then it’s a real no. You’re in or you’re out.”
Mr Sarkozy’s proposal may encounter big hurdles, namely Berlin’s reluctance to overhaul the EU institutions and Ms Merkel’s own electoral constraints with federal polls in September 2017. But the idea highlights how fluid the negotiating positions of the EU’s two largest members remain on Brexit ahead of crucial elections.^

It looks like Sarkozy is unlikely to make it past the first round of the Presidential Election though. But it still could influence whoever does become President and it looks as things are not at all cut and dried about what is on the table from the EU. Its also the first real mention of a new treaty rather than an a50 exit, I've seen by a political leader of any kind.

The point really underlines just how important events elsewhere in Europe will be to the UK's future, and how it is totally out of our hands...

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