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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

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Peregrina · 26/09/2016 09:19

I am sure you are right Hyacinth but it's worth raising these issues. I read somewhere about Yugoslavians having visa free entry to the UK. Once the country fell apart, guess what happened, the visa free entry rights disappeared with them and had to be renegotiated.

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2016 09:22

I agree that ROI citizens being kicked out is zero chance in reality. In law however its another matter, which puts people on a footing as not equal if there was a limbo whilst the legal question was resolved. It could mean that they were discriminated against by employers for example. Wording it like that though, does show up May's lack of understanding of the situation and her total neglect of the NI question as a secondary issue when it should in reality be a priority.

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Corcory · 26/09/2016 09:26

So I must be a hard Brexiter then cos I would prefer a free trade deal with the EU rather than keeping with the single market if that means we would have to keep freedom of movement. But freedom of movement has nothing to do with free trade deals with other parts of the world. So I can't see how hard Brexiters don't want free trade deals.

Peregrina · 26/09/2016 09:40

You sound a bit contradictory here, Corcory. You don't like the EU's policy on Freedom of movement because non-EU citizens are excluded. But then you want a free trade deal with the EU, which you won't get without the freedom of movement, so you would sacrifice this. Are you saying then, the rest of the world is welcome, but not EU citizens?

I don't think you are going to get what you want, but the way things are going, none of us will get what we want.

merrymouse · 26/09/2016 09:48

Free trade deal means no barriers to entry.

The single market removes barriers to entry within the EU.

You could have a different kind of free trade deal with the EU, but the nature of the EU means that they will want to include an agreement on free movement of people.

Other countries will look for concessions in return for a trade deal, which may or may not include an agreement on movement of people.

Corcory · 26/09/2016 09:56

Peregrina - other countries have free trade deals with the EU - there are about 50 of them. They have nothing to do with freedom of movement which is a prerequisite of the single market. I did start a thread on this very subject so you can have a look if you like.

merrymouse · 26/09/2016 10:05

other countries have free trade deals with the EU - there are about 50 of them.

I think the key word there might be other.

HyacinthFuckit · 26/09/2016 10:13

I'm not sure I agree it's worth raising the issue of ROI citizens being kicked out of NI actually, unless it's to dismiss it as a possibility. Nobody has even articulated an argument as to how they think this could work legally. There isn't a comparable example, and Yugoslavia isn't it, because there is no other state with which the UK has both a land border and a population with automatic dual citizenship despite being born within territory belonging solely to the UK. When we talk about NI, we're not just talking about Irish citizens having free entry, we're talking about a place where many thousands of Irish citizens live and don't need entry to because they're already there. Frankly I think it's more helpful to focus on actual realistic problems. And it's not like NI doesn't give us more than enough of those to be going on with.

The discrimination point is more pertinent, but again think of the practicalities. For one thing, people in NI who were born in NI and hold only ROI passports will still have a UK birth certificate. This, if they were born before 01/01/83 as the majority of the working age population were, is sufficient in itself to demonstrate entitlement to British citizenship. Realistically the people this might stand to affect are those Irish citizens living in NI who weren't born in NI, and aren't also entitled to British citizenship.

And think about the geographical territory we're talking about here. People in NI who only acknowledge ROI citizenship are more likely to be living in areas where the major employers are either the state or people who already don't have a problem with employing Irish citizens. That's not to say there aren't any people in NI who own businesses and would illegally discriminate against someone not acknowledging British citizenship, but this is something that happens already.

Corcory · 26/09/2016 10:13

What do you mean merry? We will be one of the 'other' countries when we leave the EU

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2016 10:18

The more I think about it, the more I think its becoming increasingly likely that the UK will end up in a situation where it finds that it will hit a constitutional crisis that will prevent Brexit in the form the right want over the issue of a50.

This leaves us in a situation where we will have no other option but to go back to the EU with this saying that it is legally obliged to recognise the democratic views of members and therefore they need to draft another EU Treaty to accommodate us somehow, thus meaning a50 is never triggered (because it can't be).

Since Scotland and NI don't wish to leave the EU, then the only way forward for the EU who would also be in a constitutional crises would be to do something along the lines of a two tier system. Hence why that's being talked about now.

The only way that this new treaty will be recognised by the EU as the democratic will of the UK is if it goes back through a referendum as otherwise its not in line with EU law. No matter what May says. Knowing the British public we'll probably fuck that up and vote against that too.

This will take years to work out and will almost certainly go past 2020. We will end up having to elect people to represent our interests in the EU in 2019. That'll be a barrel of laughs then. We get to go through the whole referendum debate all over again. Not just once, or twice but three times.

Whooopppiiiee.

I really do think all this hard brexit talk is just that. Talk. In order to try and force a better deal for the UK. Italy and Hungry's referendum are also likely to set set them up for a two tier membership if they go the way they look likely to. And to shut up the right.

May refusing to give a 'running commentary' I am starting to feel is just her playing for time over the legal stuff and overseas issues. Hence why Davies, Fox and Johnson are also trying to second guess her or look like they know what's happening. The EU leadership (not nation states) want things settled by the time of budget talks in the middle of next year. The EU members are more bothered by domestic issues rather than Britain's brain fart to push the issue. Especially since pushing the issue is more likely, rather than less likely to cause the EU to have an even bigger issue.

Therefore the decision by the Labour party to not discuss Brexit is even more fucking inexcusable. They could easily show up May for what she's doing and look stronger in doing so.

If any of those a50 court challenges win, which I think they are shaping up to do, then I can not see it panning out in any other way. At all.

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merrymouse · 26/09/2016 10:21

We will be the UK, a country that has just left the EU, with all the political implications that has, and the unique characteristics of the U.K. in terms of size, location and economy.

The fact that South Korea has made a deal with the EU does not imply that a similar deal is open to or of use to the UK.

Corcory · 26/09/2016 10:27

merry - We are one of the EU's biggest trading partners. Why wouldn't they want to do a trade deal with us?

merrymouse · 26/09/2016 10:34

They will want to trade with the U.K. and we will have no choice but to trade with the EU. There is no reason to believe that they will want any kind of deal that doesn't include free movement of people.

Peregrina · 26/09/2016 10:40

Corcory, I wasn't discussing 'other countries' and whether they had freedom of movement.

If I understand correctly you have said elsewhere that you don't like the way freedom of movement is restricted to EU citizens, and would like it opened to the rest of the world. A valid enough point. But one of the reasons for the Leave vote was to reduce immigration, and restricting EU citizens rights to live and work here. So logically to me that seems you want the rest of the world to be able to come, but not continental Europeans.

merrymouse · 26/09/2016 11:30

Therefore the decision by the Labour party to not discuss Brexit is even more fucking inexcusable. They could easily show up May for what she's doing and look stronger in doing so

As backbenchers Corbyn and McDonnell have been able to focus on their pet topics and let other people deal with the things that doesn't interest them. I'm not sure how much they care if that other person is Theresa May.

IAmNotTheMessiah · 26/09/2016 11:36

An article on one of the legal cases regarding the triggering of Article 50.

ManonLescaut · 26/09/2016 11:49

Sure Cory, you want to 'welcome people from all over the world' just not from the EU. I'm not expecting you to admit to insularity, xenophobia and conservatism, but it's the case nonetheless.

ManonLescaut · 26/09/2016 11:49

Sure Cory, you want to 'welcome people from all over the world' just not from the EU. I'm not expecting you to admit to insularity, xenophobia and conservatism, but it's the case nonetheless.

Corcory · 26/09/2016 11:55

I want to welcome people from all over the world including the EU but that we should have some system of controls that effect everyone who want to come in no mater where the come from. Simples same rules for absolutely everyone. Not xenophobic or insular at all in fact I consider the EU system very questionable when it comes to racism.

Corcory · 26/09/2016 11:59

Peregrina. I never said I wanted freedom of movement opened up to the rest of the world. I want controls but that they all be the same no matter where you come from including the EU Manon. Why on earth would I not want people coming from the EU?

ManonLescaut · 26/09/2016 12:03

We do have a system of controls, you just don't like them. And we're not going to have the same rules for countries in and out of the single market.

Corcory · 26/09/2016 12:43

Manon what do you mean 'we're not going to have the same rules for countries in and out of the single market'? We won't be in the EU so we can have nothing to do with freedom of movement and the single market if we like.That's why I don't think we should ask to be in the single market.

prettybird · 26/09/2016 13:28

Corcory - can you tell me which are the 50 countries with whom the EU has free (your word) trade agreements? Confused

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2016 13:57

May has released another rubbish waffly press release on FB this morning. She wants the message to go out that they are delivering for you.
www.facebook.com/notes/theresa-may/from-bude-to-bute-we-are-on-your-side-and-we-are-delivering-for-you/1436900822993353
Can anyone enlighten me on what she's actually delivering please? The milk? Newspapers? Babies?! The article doesn't say. Just a minor omission.

Interesting piece on Labour, McDonnell and Brexit here
www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/09/26/does-john-mcdonnell-even-know-what-his-brexit-strategy-is
I must admit to finding this quote incredibly ironic:
“Since the Brexit vote, the Tories have come up with no plan whatsoever. They have no clue. Half of them want a hard Brexit, to walk away from 30 years of investment in our relationship with Europe. Some are just paralysed by the scale of the mess they created. Working with our socialist and social democratic colleagues across Europe, our aim is to create a new Europe which builds upon the benefits of the EU but tackles the perceived disbenefits.”
It could as easily be edited to read:
“Since the Brexit vote, the Labour Party have come up with no plan whatsoever. They have no clue. Half of them want a hard Brexit, to walk away from 30 years of investment in our relationship with Europe. Some are just paralysed by the scale of the mess they created.”
And still be completely accurate and reflective of the situation.

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PattyPenguin · 26/09/2016 14:08

There's a useful list of agreements between the EU and other states here ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/agreements/index_en.htm#_other-countries

The EU is in a customs union with Andorra, San Marino and Turkey, and has a free trade agreement in place with South Korea and a Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Agreement with Ukraine. It also has finalised free trade agreements with Singapore and Vietnam which have not yet been applied.

With all the other states listed it has one or more of the following, none of which, you will note, are described as free trade agreements:
Association Agreements, Stabilisation Agreements, (Interim) Economic Partnership Agreements, Partnership and Cooperation Agreements.