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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

OP posts:
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twofingerstoGideon · 26/09/2016 14:15

The Brexit trolls are out in full force on the comments section of that Theresa May waffle. Some of them are utterly unhinged.

Corcory · 26/09/2016 14:22

Free trade agreements are sometimes called Preferential trade agreements.

Some of the countries the EU have agreements with are :-

Peru, S. Korea, Mexico, South Africa, Chile, the former Yugoslavian republics and many north African countries.

prettybird · 26/09/2016 14:34

Hardly 50 (or even nearly 50) countries Hmm

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.
HyacinthFuckit · 26/09/2016 14:38

Do you want Ireland to be under the same UK immigration rules for entry as the rest of the world corcory? Because I can't for the life of me see how that would work, unless you were going to have quite spectacularly liberal provisions for the entire planet. I don't think that's a very realistic position at the moment even if one felt it might be desirable.

TheForeignOffice · 26/09/2016 14:39

Theresa May's statement was a waste of space (to say the least). Not sure why she's stabbing Nicola Sturgeon either... I really dislike TM's attitude in general now, she's just so arrogant, autocratic and waffly every time she speaks/writes.

WTF was the point of issuing that statement anyway?

And the secret strategy? Confused I think we all know that simply doesn't exist else Foxy 'n' BoJo wouldn't have been blabbing their mouths off with BS ending up as headlines on the Telegraph only to be slapped down every five minutes later.

The UK is truly a political wasteland.

jaws5 · 26/09/2016 14:55

and Labour are a dissapointing waste of time, the topic of Brexit is being avoided in the conference as it's "not relevant enough" to the lives of "ordinary people". How very patronizing, they know it's going to shape the lives of generations to come!

prettybird · 26/09/2016 15:15

Reading TM's non statement: the fact that she spends so much of it going on about Nicola Sturgeon and Scotland shows a) how much she is trying to cover up the democratic deficit and b) that she doesn't actually have much else to say about the actual issue at hand, which is Brexit. Hmm

And that's before challenging her statement about "the UK's broad shoulders bearing the burden of the single year's Scottish deficit and taking the bad years with the good" - they were happy enough to take the "good years" Hmm. In fact, Cameron even said that Scotland couldn't have coped with all the income over the years from oil like Norway did as it needed the UK to look after it Confused

merrymouse · 26/09/2016 16:17

You can see why nobody wants to talk about Brexit - the minute you start working out what it means you start alienating most voters - all remainers and a significant proportion of leavers.

Perhaps if there were popular demand for more free trade it would be easier for politicians, but it is very clear that a large part of the Brexit vote was for more protection.

SapphireStrange · 26/09/2016 16:19

Yes, merry, spot on!

Corcory · 26/09/2016 16:40

Merry - where is it clear that a large part of the Brexit vote was for more protection?

merrymouse · 26/09/2016 16:58

Wales, the North East - places where foreign competition is perceived to have harmed industry, whether that is because of cheap foreign imports or cheap foreign workers.

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2016 17:03

You can see why nobody wants to talk about Brexit - the minute you start working out what it means you start alienating most voters - all remainers and a significant proportion of leavers.

Silly me thinking this was a democracy where we debated and discussed things like grown ups, who weigh up the pros and cons and make an on balance decision.

If all the parties had the balls to do what they are supposed to do, we might get that. The more no one wants to talk about it and admit / expose the potential problems the worse this will get for everyone.

So both Labour and the Tories are still managing to do a good job of alienating a significant part of the electorate by doing that too. Both Remain and Leave.

I do wonder when someone is going to have the balls to be honest about the situation we are now in, rather than going Brexit means Brexit and just waffling without actually managing to say anything. People are getting more and more wise to it every time they do it and its starting to undermine in its own way too.

OP posts:
merrymouse · 26/09/2016 17:08

So both Labour and the Tories are still managing to do a good job of alienating a significant part of the electorate by doing that too. Both Remain and Leave.*

I think you are right - you can only go on waffling for so long.

I think George Osborne is trying to position himself as the post post Brexit politician waiting on the sidelines to pick up the pieces.

SapphireStrange · 26/09/2016 17:51

I think George Osborne is trying to position himself as the post post Brexit politician waiting on the sidelines to pick up the pieces.

I suspect so too. I never thought I'd see the day, but if he can save the day/derail the madness then I'm right behind him.

SwedishEdith · 26/09/2016 17:53

Luxembourg's Foreign Minister want Hungary kicked out of the EU.

[https://www.ft.com/content/a541282a-7988-11e6-97ae-647294649b28]]

I can see why Labour is avoiding the issue - their core voters in the north voted for it. McDonnell, instead, has to offer increased minimum wage and borrow to invest as a distraction.

TheBathroomSink · 26/09/2016 17:59

According to the DT, Deutschebank is in trouble, which puts Angela Merkel in a difficult position:

"...Germany has insisted on enforcing euro-zone rules that say depositors – that is, ordinary people – have to shoulder some of the losses when a bank is in trouble.
For Germany to then turn around and say, actually we are bailing out our own bank, while letting everyone else’s fail, looks, to put it mildly, just a little inconsistent. Heck, a few people might even start to wonder if there was one rule for Germany, and another one for the rest. In truth, it would become impossible to maintain a hard-line in Italy, and probably in Greece as well.
And yet, if Deutsche Bank went down, and the German Government didn’t step in with a rescue, that would be a huge blow to Europe’s largest economy – and the global financial system. "

I have no idea how much trouble Deutsche is in, or how much this is wishful thinking on the part of the DT.

Figmentofmyimagination · 26/09/2016 17:59

Merry is right - the central dichotomy of brexit is that a tiny number of free market hard liners, who have spent years plotting away on the "creepy nutter" side of the party (Jenkin, fox, raab, redwood, Davis etc) managed to get what they wanted by duping a fundamentally protectionist 'Crowd' into voting for what they wanted. But the two aims are irreconcilable, so we now have an ugly political power battle on our hands, with no opposition. It's frightening stuff.

HyacinthFuckit · 26/09/2016 18:06

I've been thinking about this sapphire and actually I think I might be too. I said upthread I haven't voted Conservative before and didn't see myself doing so in the future, but on further reflection I'd give serious consideration to anyone I thought might get us out of this mess. Or, in the absence of such, the likeliest looking contender. If he were at the helm at some point with a sensible proposal, that might be enough to persuade me. The same is true of any other previously disliked politico, if anyone's reading.

SapphireStrange · 26/09/2016 18:08

It's through-the-looking-glass stuff, isn't it Hyacinth?

Figmentofmyimagination · 26/09/2016 18:13

Hyacinth in the days immediately after the vote, I remember even thinking kindly of Jeremy hunt (who is normally beyond the pale) because he pointed out that the referendum was 'advisory' and that some sort of parliamentary vote was needed.

In my dreams I'd like to see a breakaway party of the centre, led by somebody competent. If only there was a millionaire prepared to fund it.

SwedishEdith · 26/09/2016 18:16

Am somewhat relieved I live somewhere where a Lib Dem vote is the only viable vote and the decision is taken away from me. Voting for the tories? No, I'm not there yet.

SwedishEdith · 26/09/2016 18:19

Ha, ha, yes, I remember (very fleetingly) having a non-negative thought about Hunt. Same re Amber Rudd. What have we become? There'll be a suitable Shakespeare quote somewhere.

Peregrina · 26/09/2016 18:31

This is just a piece for the Conference. How she can say she wants something for the whole of the UK and then spends her time slagging off Scotland is beyond me.

She is getting something of a roasting on the raising of the pensions age for women e.g.
You are not on the side of the women born in the 1950 Era who got up early from the age of 15 and worked hard expecting their pensions at 60 We have been ignored and penalised by this Government Our pensions have been stolen from us and we paid in and we want them out so to be fair give us what we are due.

They also craftily increased the age at which you could get your bus pass to be in line with pension age, and that was hardly publicised at all.

Peregrina · 26/09/2016 18:45

The more I think about it, the more I think its becoming increasingly likely that the UK will end up in a situation where it finds that it will hit a constitutional crisis that will prevent Brexit in the form the right want over the issue of a50.
This might of course, give TM a face saving way out.

She needs to read up on Harold Wilson, who was a crafty beggar, and learn a few tricks about how to manage public opinion from him. There was no end of chuntering about the EEC as it then was, but somehow he managed to get the vote to go his way.

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