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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
Mistigri · 25/09/2016 22:32

Its crowd funded

I know one of the people behind this - this is his crowd-funding page:

www.crowdjustice.co.uk/case/parliament-should-decide/

Corcory · 25/09/2016 22:35

Peregrina - we only have something in common with them in a trade point of view in that we have very similar legal systems and it would perhaps be easier to do deals with them than others. That I think is what leavers mean by us having a lot in common with these countries nothing at all to do with empire building.

Peregrina · 25/09/2016 22:49

Corcory, I think you can accept that argument with Australia, Canada and New Zealand.

I don't think you can accept it with regards to South Africa which I think is based more on Dutch law - or Dutch colonial law. I don't know enough about the USA but I question to what extent our legal systems are similar; they have a written constitution for a starter and we don't.

I most definitely think that Fox was thinking back to the days of the Empire.

Corcory · 25/09/2016 23:25

Australia, Canada and New Zealand are the ones people are talking about Peregrina and keep being called empire builders.

Peregrina · 25/09/2016 23:30

Some are also talking about the 'anglosphere' by including the USA. Until they explain why they think we should trade with Canada, Australia and New Zealand, in preference to countries which are on our doorstep, it's difficult not to jump to the conclusion that there is a shade of wishful thinking about the Empire going on.

IAmNotTheMessiah · 25/09/2016 23:34

We have identical legal systems with those of the EU when it comes to trade, so why not trade with the EU.

It's not rocket surgery.

mathanxiety · 26/09/2016 00:44

Wrt Osborne's speech:

Indeed, it is in the whole of Europe’s interest that the voice of Britain as a force for economic reform, global competitiveness and free trade is not lost from the collective discussion about how we raise the productivity of the whole European economy - or else we will all be poorer for it.

This plea may well be heartfelt, but it is also a plea from the individual in political exile and not representing many in his own party to those who don't necessarily have to listen, and who were getting along very well up to 1973 without the UK.

And our security is also completely interdependent with the continent of Europe. Two thousand years of British history, from the Roman invasion to the Battle of Britain, have taught us that. Each and every time we have tried to disengage from Europe, and wipe our hands of its problems, it has been a disaster for Britain and a tragedy for our continent.

A piece of dodgy historical analysis here.

But I do know what has happened in Syria while we chose not to intervene decisively. Hundreds of thousands killed. Millions displaced. Neighbouring countries destabilised. The taboo on the use of chemical weapons broken. The emergence of a terrorist state. Russia back as a major player in the Middle East. And a refugee crisis that has fuelled the rise of extremism across Europe.

Yes, my political generation knows the cost of intervention - but we are also beginning to understand the cost of not intervening. It doesn't make our countries more secure.

Here he advocates a return to the Cold War, with no bones about it. The point of his remarks is that Russia must be frozen out. That is an appeal to hawkish anti-Russian elements of American politics and think tankers who are shills for the defence industry.

His comments about China reflect a scenario where the west must climb onto the tiger's back or be eaten. There is a lot of wishful thinking about dealing with China.

There is also a lot of wishful thinking about British hard power. And he surely knows that NATO red tape is the biggest problem it faces?
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/10326318/Sir-Michael-Graydon-UK-now-lags-behind-Argentina.html

I suspect he is positioning himself in his speech as a reassuring voice for the US that the UK hasn't completely lost its mind, but a glance at the facts - the rise of racism, the continued presence on the political scene of Farage, and the continued vehemence about a hard Brexit with accompanying deafening silence from May's government will convince observers otherwise.

mathanxiety · 26/09/2016 01:36

I recommend William Shirer's account 'The Collapse of the Third Republic' along with Koestler's 'Scum of the Earth'. Thank you for the Koestler recommendation. Shirer's verdict on the fall of France was similar to Koestler's, but he traces the roots of the crisis way back into the history of the Third Republic. He is especially good on the topic of the vacuum that existed where there should have been a strong centre.

How forlorn Osborne must feel after Froman's interview wrt UK-US trade. Very clearly, the US doesn't need the UK and will proceed with European relationships, and why this should come as a surprise to anyone beats me. The US does whatever is in the best interests of the US and prioritises money over every other factor. If the UK can't maintain passporting and can't secure easy exporting of finished goods from the UK to the EU with components from all corners of the globe manufactured by US owned companies or companies that US funds are invested in, then the question the US is going to ask is 'What UK?'

mathanxiety · 26/09/2016 01:39

A most interesting 'across the divide' picture painted there by the Belfast Telegraph.

The blog comments about people being kicked out of NI are not based on reality. The UK and Ireland and NI had travel and residency agreements that predated the EEC, and there would be no reason apart from sheer bloody mindedness not to keep them up.

merrymouse · 26/09/2016 05:47

The combined population of Canada, New Zealand and Australia is I think around 70 million, and we already trade with all those countries while in the EU.

merrymouse · 26/09/2016 06:01

And our security is also completely interdependent with the continent of Europe

Not sure about his historical analysis, but I think that like any country we are pretty dependent on our neighbours for security.

Peregrina · 26/09/2016 08:13

The blog comments about people being kicked out of NI are not based on reality.

I suppose though, that this is the sort of area of law where unintended or unthought consequences came into play. Theoretically, NI citizens who only held an Irish passport could be thrown out, if a hard border came in, but in practice everyone would assume that the old rules overrode those, but a constitutional lawyer might question this. Not being a lawyer, I don't know, but these sorts of things are the nitty-gritty details which would need to be clarified.

I saw Michael Dougan on a programme and it was 20 minutes of 'the law isn't clear on this point, this causes constitutional questions....' and this was a man who most definitely knew what he was talking about.

HyacinthFuckit · 26/09/2016 08:19

Yeah nobody is getting kicked out of NI. The arrangements the UK and ROI have with each other long precede the accession of either country. Brexit is going to cause enough problems for NI, we don't need to invent any more.

merrymouse · 26/09/2016 08:26

Previous travel arrangements were before free movement of people in the EU.

merrymouse · 26/09/2016 08:32

There is no desire for a hard border within Ireland - the issue would be how not to have a hard boarder while practically maintaining a border with the rest of the EU; and how to express this in law.

Corcory · 26/09/2016 08:38

The point of mentioning Australia, Canada and New Zealand are because we could probably arrange free trade deals with them much quicker than with other countries. Yes of course we already trade with these countries but we would need to get some free trade deals set up.
We will always trade with Europe and hopefully will get a free trade deal with the EU as well. So it's not an either/or situation. We, as part of the EU do have trade deals with about 50 other countries but they are not the UK's traditional trading partners so would be good to get some free trade deals with countries we traditionally traded with as well as the EU.

merrymouse · 26/09/2016 08:43

So it's not an either/or situation.

But there is no particular reason to believe that we would have much better trade deals with these countries outside the EU.

I don't think tradition comes into it one way or another.

Peregrina · 26/09/2016 08:44

We are back to the wish lists here Corcory. You and I would hope for free trade deals - the Hard Brexiters don't want these. Yes, we could trade more with Australia, Canada and New Zealand, but there is a limit as to how much more these markets could offer, and little getting round the distances as far as movement of goods are concerned.

merrymouse · 26/09/2016 08:49

Many people voted for Brexit because they wanted more trade protection.

merrymouse · 26/09/2016 08:56

Interestingly, I think this seems to be what McDonnell is promising with a more interventionist economy.

And no more discussion of Brexit...

Corcory · 26/09/2016 09:02

Peregrina - what do hard Brexiters want if they don't want free trade deals then?

Peregrina · 26/09/2016 09:06

I should have spelt out that they want the free trade deals without the freedom of movement, which they don't look like getting.

merrymouse · 26/09/2016 09:08

I'm not sure about 'hard brexiters', but I think many people who voted for Brexit want protection from globalisation - whether that is Chinese imports or Polish workers.

However, I don't know if any party is really offering that combination.

HyacinthFuckit · 26/09/2016 09:11

Previous travel arrangements were before free movement of people in the EU.

Depends what you mean by that. The previous arrangements did exist long before even the EU itself, yes. However free movement was in place when both the UK and ROI joined. It looks very different now, though, which personally I think is the bigger problem. And is why the blithe trills of Brexiters on the NI thread asserting it'll all be fine because it was before rang very hollow.

But the odds of ROI citizens being kicked out of NI, particularly as the NI born amongst them will also be entitled to British citizenship and very few bother to formally renounce it, are zero.

merrymouse · 26/09/2016 09:17

Depends what you mean by that. The previous arrangements did exist long before even the EU itself, yes.

Yes, I mean that the pre 'UK and ROI in EU' situation is nothing like the situation now in terms of free movement in the EU.