Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
SwedishEdith · 25/09/2016 16:43

Just spotted on Twitter

"Cornwall now down to zero Ukip councillors after six elected in 2013. 6 to 0 in three years!"

Peregrina · 25/09/2016 16:48

I despair of Liam Fox. He says:
“One hundred and fifty years ago the UK was the world’s biggest trading nation, and now we will lead the charge again for freer and fairer global trade.”

One hundred and fifty years ago we had an Empire. The nations of the Empire started claiming their independence 70 years ago. They are not going to clamour to become colonies again.

God help us. It's a pity that May couldn't have found someone with a better grasp of world affairs.

Peregrina · 25/09/2016 16:54

Fox also needs a lesson in Geography. How can the UK benefit from favourable time zones with Asia and the USA?

I used to have work dealings with a mid-west American firm. It was an absolute pain trying to set up telephone conferences with them, because of the 7 hour time difference. There were no problems setting up conferences with EU colleagues, only a 1 hour difference for most of them.

RedToothBrush · 25/09/2016 17:00

Peregina, 24 hour, 7 day a week business of course.

Look how well that concept is working out for the medical profession where there is perhaps a reason that people can understand even if you don't agree with the stats or the politics behind it.

Now think about how that would go down across the country and how that will work out for families and the idea of a better quality of life that is so desperately sought for these 'hard working families' we hear so much about.

Maybe this is why he's been going on about how we are lazy as a nation.... I'm not sure this is what Brexit voters quite had in mind though somehow.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 25/09/2016 18:18

Two tweets. Tweeted the same second.

Says it all about Labour.

ProgressOnline ‏@ProgressOnline · 48s48 seconds ago
"Walking into conference I was handed a Militant newsletter... I won't let them ruin another generation's childhood" @Alison_McGovern #Lab16

Momentum ‏@PeoplesMomentum · 48s48 seconds ago
Momentum activist Carol Machell: we're not cultists, uninterested in elections or out of touch. Great article! →
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/24/were-not-naive-deluded-cultists-in-momentum--were-ordinary-labou/

Can we just get on with the fan and the shit now please?

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 25/09/2016 18:22

George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton · 29m29 minutes ago
Labour delegates have voted not to debate Brexit at conference (didn't make top eight motions).

Bloody brilliant. Labour decide not to debate the biggest political issue in a generation.

Talk about ignoring the elephant in the room.

F-U-C-K-I-N-G H-E-L-L

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 25/09/2016 18:41

I've read a lot of historical parallels about what is happening with regard to Brexit. Lots about revolutions and cycles - none particularly attractive tbh.

www.libdemvoice.org/arthur-koestlers-account-of-the-fall-of-france-closed-intolerant-divided-a-warning-for-brexit-britain-51950.html#utm_source=tweet&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter

This one on Lib Dem Voice is another. Again unfavourable. But nonetheless thought provoking. (If you can stand the typos).

It compares France in 1940 with Brexit Britain. I find it particularly compelling given the whole concept of Brexit being a throwback to the Empire and the use of Churchill in the Leave campaign itself.

OP posts:
Peregrina · 25/09/2016 18:46

Labour decide not to debate the biggest political issue in a generation.
God almighty! Talk about fiddling while Rome burns. An indication about how divided they are, I suppose.

HesterThrale · 25/09/2016 18:53

Not debate Brexit?!

I. Don't. Believe. It.

I just give up with Labour. I have no faith that they'll provide adequate Opposition, even with a secured leadership.

IAmNotTheMessiah · 25/09/2016 19:24

I despair!

Is this the Corbynite version of post-facts politics?

lalalonglegs · 25/09/2016 19:27

I think I'm going to weep. How can they not discuss Brexit?

twofingerstoGideon · 25/09/2016 19:42

Sadly, this doesn't surprise me at all and I would generally consider myself a Labour voter. JC's reluctance to discuss Brexit was noticeable at the rally I attended and his performance on the MN webchat reinforced my view that he's not interested in debating/asking questions in response to the general bullshit that the Brexit Ministers are spouting.
That's why I didn't vote for him in the leadership election.

merrymouse · 25/09/2016 20:05

So no debate on Brexit, and it's absolutely fine to talk about a woman MP being lynched as long as you are expressing your honest opinion.

m.facebook.com/pestonitv/posts/1699042380420500

I think any hope of a post leadership election functioning opposition has been completely extinguished.

(Which is of course bad news for any body wanting a government that might do something about disability cuts)

RedToothBrush · 25/09/2016 20:14

New kinder gentler politics merrymouse.

Nuff said.

OP posts:
gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 25/09/2016 20:18

pacific don't mind you asking at all but I'm sorry, can't say.

HesterThrale · 25/09/2016 20:21

Twofingers, I agree JC doesn't seem to want to discuss Brexit, but weren't the topics for debate voted for by the members? (I don't know the procedure). If so, aren't any of them interested in discussing it?

It beggars belief.

RedToothBrush · 25/09/2016 20:32

David Allen Green has just posted 19 hurdles to Brexit on his blog:

jackofkent.com/2016/09/the-many-hurdles-of-brexit-a-short-summary-post/

I'm trying to work out if we've covered them all or whether there are any others we have done he hasn't got on his list.

I think working out EU law on whether Qualified Majority or unanimous voting applies to post a50 deal or not, was one and could involve a legal case. I don't think he has on his list.

That and May agreeing with Fox, Davies and Johnson on something (as well as with the rest of her Cabinet).

OP posts:
merrymouse · 25/09/2016 20:38

Although all indications are that organised parliamentary opposition from the Labour Party is unlikely to be much of a hurdle.

RedToothBrush · 25/09/2016 21:06

Labour's Day gets worse
order-order.com/2016/09/25/today-at-labour-conference/
Labour and Anti-Semitism.

The FT is reporting in tomorrows paper that the city is starting to fear that the government is favouring a hard exit as hundreds of extra customs staff are to be hired.

Can't find a readable link at the moment. It doesn't sound good though.

Peter Ungphakorn ‏@CoppetainPU
1/2 - Unending discovery. EU's duty-free lamb/mutton imports limited to 284k tonnes, all but 200 tonnes allocated to specific exporters. UK?

Peter Ungphakorn @CoppetainPU
2/2 Without FTA with EU, UK would have fight for a share of those 200t, or negotiate larger quota. In 2015 UK exported 75,000 tonnes to EU

Lorand Bartels ‏@Lorand_Bartels
@CoppetainPU fight? Maybe in court. Art XIII:2(d) GATT protects the UK as a supplier with a substantial interest. And it's very substantial.

Peter Ungphakorn ‏@CoppetainPU
@Lorand_Bartels Best option is a negotiated TRQ expansion and yes UK can claim that right as a basis. Won't be quick though

Lorand Bartels ‏@Lorand_Bartels

@CoppetainPU as the saying goes, one negotiates in the shadow of the law.

Peter Ungphakorn ‏@CoppetainPU
@Lorand_Bartels Indeed. But some form of FTA with EU wd be better. Difficult to imagine UK not having one, but then Brexit was also ...

And that's just lamb...

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-22/obama-s-warning-on-u-k-trade-is-now-reality-u-s-s-froman-says
And we are apparently at the back of the queue for a US - UK trade deal. Despite lots of saying that Obama was talking it up and it wasn't true.

OP posts:
ManonLescaut · 25/09/2016 21:13

I really agree with Hook's comparison to 1940 France.

When Leave voters tell me that Remain needs to put up and shut up, I ask them whether they would have just put up with Pétainisme. That is the nearest comparison in terms of outlook - the conservatism, insularity, xenophobia, backward-vision, fear of the future and the fast changes of the modern world. If WWII hadn't kicked off and France hadn't fallen I think France might have ended up with a mini civil war anyway.

In buggering off out of the EU we are reneging on treaties, which is exactly what France did to Czechoslovakia, in completely different circumstances of course. Dishonouring valid treaties rarely ends well. We are betraying the whole European post-war peace project - and for what?

RedToothBrush · 25/09/2016 21:35

Details of a big legal a50 challenge are here.
www.monckton.com/article-50-litigation-interested-parties-skeleton-argument-published/
Its 27 pages long. Its good. Its crowd funded, represents the interests of a number of ordinary UK citizens living in England, Gibraltar, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, as well as British expats located in France

Here are a selection of points, just so you get a good flavour of what is in it.

Point 27.
It is notable that the courts have previously assumed that an Act of Parliament would be necessary before the UK could repudiate the EU Treaties (emphasis added throughout):
a. In Blackburn v AG [1971] 1 WLR 1037 at p. 1040, Denning LJ (as he then was) said: “If her Majesty’s Ministers sign this treaty and Parliament enacts provisions to implement it, I do not envisage that Parliament would afterwards go back on it and try to withdraw from it. But, if Parliament should so, then I say we will consider that event when it happens. We will then say whether Parliament can lawfully do it or not.”
b. In Macarthys Ltd v Smith [1979] 3 All ER 325 at p. 329, Denning LJ (as he then was) said: “If the time should come when our Parliament deliberately passes an Act with the intention of repudiating the Treaty or any provision in it or intentionally of acting inconsistently with it and says so in express terms then I should have thought that it would be the duty of our courts to follow the statute of our Parliament.”
c. In R(Shindler) v Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster [2016] EWCA Civ 469 at §19, Lord Dyson MR said: “I accept that Parliament is sovereign and that it does not need the mandate of a referendum to give it power to withdraw from the EU. But by passing the 2015 Act, Parliament has decided that it will not withdraw from the EU unless a withdrawal is supported by referendum. In theory, Parliament could decide to withdraw without waiting for the result of the referendum despite the passing of the 2015 Act. But this is no more than a theoretical possibility. The reality is that it has decided that it will withdraw only if that course is sanctioned by the referendum that it has set in train. In other words, the referendum (if it supports a withdrawal) is an integral part of the process of deciding to withdraw from the EU. In short, by passing the 2015 Act, Parliament has decided that one of the constitutional requirements that had to be satisfied as a condition of a withdrawal from the EU was a referendum.”

d. Lord Mance in the Supreme Court in Pham v Secretary of State for the Home Department [2015] UKSC 19, in considering that the conferral of rights as an EU citizen was the consequence of the passage of the ECA 1972, observed (at [82]): “For a domestic court, the starting point is, in any event, to identify the ultimate legislative authority in its jurisdiction according to the relevant rule of recognition. The search is simple in a country like the United Kingdom with an explicitly dualist approach to obligations undertaken at a supranational level. European law is certainly special and represents a remarkable development in the world’s legal history. But, unless and until the rule of recognition by which we shape our decisions is altered, we must view the United Kingdom as independent, Parliament as sovereign and European law as part of domestic law because Parliament has so willed. The question how far Parliament has so willed is thus determined by construing the 1972 Act.”

Point 37.
Section 18 of the EUA 2011 provides that EU law, defined as “the rights, powers, liabilities, obligations, restrictions, remedies and procedures referred to in section 2(1) of the ECA 1972”, is “recognised and available in law in the UK” by virtue of the ECA 1972. Thus, through section 18 EUA 2011, Parliament has preserved the UK’s place in the legal order of the EU as enlarged by the ECA 1972 and the consequent “availability” in UK law of the rights, remedies and procedures etc. conferred by EU law. Parliament has thereby occupied this field, and Parliamentary authority is required before the UK’s place within the legal order of the EU, and the availability of EU rights in UK law, may be repudiated.

Points 42 and 43
^The UK’s “constitutional arrangements” include the Scotland Act 1998, the Northern Ireland Act 1998, and the Government of Wales Act 2006, which govern the arrangements between the constituent parts of the UK23 (“the devolution statutes”). The devolution statutes provide for
22 Hansard, HC volume 520, Col. 193. 23 See, e.g. s. 63A of the Scotland Act 1998: “The Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government are a permanent part of the United Kingdom’s constitutional arrangements.”^

the devolved governments (concurrently with the UK government) to observe, transpose and implement EU law, and preclude the devolved governments from legislating or acting in a manner contrary to EU law. Many areas of devolved competence are shaped by the UK’s EU’s obligations, e.g. in relation to fishing, agricultural policy, environmental protection, the administration of EU structural funds, and public procurement.

For example:
a. The devolved legislatures do not have legislative competence to enact legislation which “is incompatible ... with EU law” (s. 29(2)(d) Scotland Act 1998; s. 80 Government of Wales Act 2006; s. 6(2)(d) Northern Ireland Act 1998);
b. The devolved executives have no power to act in a manner that is “incompatible with EU law” (s. 57(2) Scotland Act 1998; s. 80 Government of Wales Act 2006; s. 24(1) Northern Ireland Act 1998);
c. The devolution statutes provide for preliminary references to the CJEU by the Supreme Court, when considering the legislative competence of the devolved legislatures (s. 34 Scotland Act 1998; s. 113 Government of Wales Act 2006; s. 12 Northern Ireland Act 1998);
d. The devolution statutes define “EU law”, without reference to the ECA 1972, as all those “rights, powers, liabilities, obligations and restrictions from time to time created or arising by or under the EU Treaties, and ... all those remedies and procedures from time to time provided for by or under [those/the] EU Treaties” (s. 126(9) Scotland Act 1998; s. 158(1) Government of Wales Act 2006; s. 98 Northern Ireland Act 1998).

Point 45 and 46
In summary, the devolution settlement across the UK is predicated on, indeed expressly defined by, the application of EU law. The arrangements rely on EU law to define the powers of the devolved legislatures and matters reserved to Westminster and to ensure that EU law is given effect by those legislatures, thereby protecting the EU rights of citizens of the devolved nations and in particular preventing the devolved legislatures from acting in a manner which limits the rights of citizens of the devolved nations conferred by EU law. In the case of Northern Ireland (at least), the political settlement, which governs not just the powers of the Northern Ireland Assembly but the overall governance of Northern Ireland and the relationship between the UK Government, Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic in relation to those matters, is predicated on the UK’s continuing EU membership.
In passing the devolution statutes, Parliament has relied on, and referred to, the implementation of, and continuing compliance with, EU law as a permanent feature of the internal constitutional arrangements between Westminster and the devolved legislatures and governments. Only Parliament can change those arrangements.25 Given the role of EU law in those legislative arrangements, the use of the prerogative to withdraw the UK from the EU is precluded by necessary implication.

NICE! Constitutional Crisis right there. (I believe that the House of Lords have an obligation to act to prevent things like constitutional crisis... Please feel free to correct me if I am I wrong).

Point 65
The People’s Challenge IPs adopt LC Skel §§ 5(2), 31-35 and 42(1), 46, 47(3) – 47(4), and 48 – 49 to this effect. See too Lord Oliver in Rayner (Mincing Lane) Ltd v DOT [1990] 2 AC 418 at 500B-C:
“...the Royal Prerogative, whilst it embraces the making of treaties, does not extend to altering the law or conferring rights upon individuals or depriving individuals of rights which they enjoy in domestic law without the intervention of Parliament”

Point 66
The enquiry is one of substance not form. As Lawton LJ said in Laker Airways v Department of Trade [1977] QB 643, at 728A-B:
“the Secretary of State cannot use the Queen’s prerogative powers in this sphere in such a way as to take away the rights of citizens... By withdrawing designation this is what in reality, if not in form, he is doing. A licence to operate a scheduled route is useless without designation.”

And finally point 88
For the reasons set out above, the People’s Challenge IPs invite the Court to declare that the UK’s constitutional arrangements mean that only Parliament can lawfully “decide” to leave the EU for the purposes of Article 50 TEU; and that the Defendant may only “notify” such a decision to the European Council under Article 50(2) TEU once he has been properly authorised to do so by an Act of Parliament.

SUCK ON THAT MAY AND DAVIES!

The government are adamant at the moment that they will use the Royal Prerogative to trigger a50 and that it does not have to go through Parliament. The whole of the Brexit timetable is based on this at the moment.

This is a GOOD case. It has a very good chance of winning I believe.

Also, this is in addition to the NI challenges. Including the one that the NI Attorney General is backing.
www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/northern-ireland-attorney-general-to-be-involved-in-landmark-brexit-challenge-35070968.html
The fact that the Attorney General is involved should send alarm bells ringing.

Comments on Jack of Kent Blog on hurdles are getting interesting. I like the one about how 20% of NI could in theory be deported as Irish Citizens without a British Passport if you take what May says seriously and the relevant agreements are not made.

OP posts:
Corcory · 25/09/2016 21:57

Insularity, xenophobia, backward-vision and fear of the future couldn't be further from any view of Brexit I have Manon.
In fact the opposite is the case. I certainly don't know of any leave voter who wants to resurrect any type of empire. Wishing to trade with other countries that we might have had connections with previously is certainly not empire building.
Wanting to leave the EU is in my view, very forward thinking and far from insular.
As I have said before I want to ensure we welcome people from all over the world in equal measure not just people from the EU.

RedToothBrush · 25/09/2016 22:05

The last constitutional crisis in the UK was 1909. It lasted two years. It was the one that lead to the 1911 Parliamentary Act. The one that was supposed to reform the House of Lords. We are still waiting on that one.

I am beginning to seriously think that there is no way out of Brexit without a constitutional crisis. May's actions are not making me think that we are on course for anything different other than a collision course for a constitutional crisis.

Which means that the Brexit timetable would be completely out the window. Which means that the European Election in 2019 could be a bit of a problem. As could the General Election in 2020.

What's anyone else think?

OP posts:
Peregrina · 25/09/2016 22:12

Corcory, I am sure that you would like to welcome people from all over the world. Whether you would get that with TM's government, given her obsession with immigration must be debatable.

Some Leave voters are certainly talking as though they would like to resurrect the Empire, or at least the White parts of the Commonwealth & the USA. We have already seen on these threads the statement that we have more in common with them.

Fox babbling on about the country being great in the 19th Century couldn't be talking about much else. As well as having a totally cockeyed idea of geography.

Peregrina · 25/09/2016 22:22

What's anyone else think?

I did this at school in history, but that is many years ago now, so I don't remember the details.

I cannot see how May can square the N Ireland situation with Brexit.

With Scotland, I think she would be prepared to call Sturgeon's bluff (although I don't think Sturgeon is bluffing, but she may not carry the Scots with her).

Gibraltar? Sacrificed? Shared sovereignity? The Treaty of Utrecht was 3 centuries ago when Spain still had an Empire and we were still building ours up, so circumstances have definitely changed there.

Any delay for a decision of such magnitude would be welcome,IMO, because it would allow the details to be thrashed out properly, instead of the pie in the sky stuff being parrotted now.