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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

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Thread gallery
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lalalonglegs · 24/09/2016 13:07

merry - I doubted that JC would match his 2015 share of the vote, much less improve upon it Blush.

Peregrina · 24/09/2016 13:37

Not being a Labour support myself, and living in an area where it would take a revolution to get a Labour MP elected, I have watched the contest with detachment. I haven't forgotten who said, “For heaven’s sake man, go.” A man who is no longer PM and has now caused a by-election.

SwedishEdith · 24/09/2016 13:45

Ha, yes, very true. I'm also vaguely detached as can't vote Labour where I live. But Tim Roache (GMB leader - had to look up who he was) was on tv earlier. I liked that he was saying that we (Labour) have to explain that low wages and poor jobs etc are not the fault of immigrants but of exploitative employers. Labour (and the Lib Dems) need to start saying this very, very clearly, loudly and repeatedly.

GingerIvy · 24/09/2016 13:46

Yes Peregrina interesting that he made that comment, after all the chaos he's caused.

mathanxiety · 24/09/2016 20:46

Amen to that, SwedishEdith.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 24/09/2016 21:47

I don't know where the theories that Corbyn is presented in an overly favourable light by the media have come from. It's been quite the opposite. I agree with Owen Jones (though usually don't) on this: In the last year, Corbyn’s leadership has been battered by the most relentless and extreme media campaign against a mainstream politician in modern British history.

TheNorthRemembers · 24/09/2016 21:52

Well I'm surprised at attempts to find GO palatable.

Hester I think it is just that Overton window moved so much. A few years ago it would have been unthinkable to behave publicly like Farage / Trump / Michael "Non-expert" Gove, nowadays they are the norm. I cried real tears when Cameron resigned (whom I despise with all my heart), because I knew it could only get worse. Better the devil you know and all that jazz.

Osborne is a heartless ideologue, but he may redeem himself in the end (just to spite his former friends, not because he is such a great friend of the little people in the North like myself).

I know who said that Cameron is not so nice in person, but Osborne is fun. The woman who had relationships of varying degree with Johnson, Cameron, Gove and Osborne. I do not know her name.

Let's see if Corbyn manages to turn things around.

TheForeignOffice · 25/09/2016 08:13

Hester I think it is just that Overton window moved so much

Exactly that IMHO. Given the choice between (only) Leadsom and May, I was bizarrely "happy" to back the Mediocre Authoritarian May (who incidentally has done nothing but reinforce her track record in this capacity since coming to power). The shame of it!

But if you give me the choice between May and a maybe-reformed GO who's making respectful murmurs regarding the North, democracy, economic health, anti-far-right sentiment, and is apparently on of the few heavyweight-ish politicians we have willing to stand up to May.....

...well I'll be backing George Osborne 100% in a flash because I think he's the best chance we have to get a bit of sense and moderacy back into Westminster right now. Hopefully his allegedly friendly demeanor can help him round up enough support to make a significant impact.

As always, only time will tell.

HesterThrale · 25/09/2016 08:51

Yes, TheNorth, I agree the Overton window has moved. And dramatically quickly. I suspect GO will eventually be seen as supporting Remain for his banker friends in the city, and not the people of the North. This article references Clegg's assertion that GO thought social housing a bad idea as it just creates more Labour voters.

www.theguardian.com/business/2016/sep/17/brexit-not-time-to-move-on-time-to-fight-eu-referendum?

TheForeignOffice, the article also pleads for more political heavyweights (Clarke/Farron/Clegg) to stand up and fight for a democratic vote on Article 50 terms. And if GO could have any sway in this by joining them, then let him join the clamour, whatever his motives. A means to an end.

But we've never needed politicians with true integrity more. Ones who really put the good of the country before their own greed and ideologies.Those Tory Remainers need to come out of the woodwork and speak out.

Peregrina · 25/09/2016 08:59

Cameron Let Down by May The cracks in the Tory party are beginning to show. OK as a Cameron aide, he is one of the 'has beens' but it doesn't exactly make things look rosy.

winkywinkola · 25/09/2016 09:25

Tory Remainers don't dare to do much though, do they? The mood and tide is so very for hard Brexit among Leavers in the public.

Was May really playing the long game with an eye on the PM role? Look how it's landed in her lap.

HesterThrale · 25/09/2016 09:27

Yes SwedishEdith posted up thread that Bonnie Greer's been tweeting for a while about the real split being in the Tory Party, and it gets ignored. Over the EU they were definitely more divided than Labour. Better at hiding over the summer it in order to retain power?

Now the splits must be greater in complexity and number. Not just In or Out; but if you're Out, are you Hard or Soft?

I don't see how they can present a united front for long.

Peregrina · 25/09/2016 09:29

The mood and tide is so very for hard Brexit among Leavers in the public.
It is for the ones who are making most noise. Whether it is for all, is a matter of debate. I have friends who voted Leave, who now feel absolutely sick at what has happened since the Referendum, but are just getting on with their lives, and hoping for the best.

SwedishEdith · 25/09/2016 11:02

Just got this from the Lib Dems

“It’s difficult to under-estimate just how much opposition there is in parts of Government to devolution and the Northern Powerhouse project. Without Osborne and (Jim) O’Neill pushing, it would never have got off the ground. Now both are gone, there seems to be no-one fighting for the North in Westminster.”

HyacinthFuckit · 25/09/2016 11:55

Agree about the Overton window. Having never been a fan of Cameron or Osborne, they seem almost palatable now in comparison, and on purely selfish grounds I suppose I'd want Osborne because I live in Manchester and he has an interest in the city doing well. In the same way that May looked good next to Leadsom because she at least has some idea which way is up. The merest whiff of competence set her apart.

I think perhaps there's also a feeling that the Tories will do better at keeping their shit together. Because historically they usually do. That's the narrative. From an academic perspective, I find it fascinating actually. I'm more to the left myself and don't envisage ever voting for them, but their party machinations seem much more fascinating to me than Labour's. They've an amazing record for always managing to cling on somehow. I remember doing an essay in my undergrad days about whether they were driven primarily by ideology or pragmatism (I argued for b, it was around the time they managed to ignore their newly written leadership election rules to get Michael Howard in). I must try and dig it out. But of course, because this is the well established narrative, it's the easier story to write. And that makes a difference to how things are covered.

winkywinkola · 25/09/2016 13:33

Peregrina, Leave voters who feel sick about what happened since the referendum? About what exactly? That it's actually happening? About TM being PM? All of it?

Peregrina · 25/09/2016 13:51

The Leave voters that I know felt sick because they realised that the commitment to more money for the NHS was just empty talk and abhorrence of the racism unleashed. This was before TM became PM so I can't say what they think of her.

PacificOcean · 25/09/2016 13:59

I know a Leave voter whose son in law has been made redundant as a direct result of Brexit. He now says "that wasn't what I wanted", which I guess means that he underestimated the economic impact and focused on the sovereignty / immigration aspects.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 25/09/2016 15:29

I know a vocal leave voter who is 800 a month poorer (pension) as a direct result of brexit. It was a surprise to him -don't know what he was expecting. Haven't liked to ask if he has regrets...

PattyPenguin · 25/09/2016 15:32

BoJo says the NHS will get substantially more (though he doesn't say how much) once the UK leaves the EU
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/25/boris-johnson-nhs-extra-funds-after-brexit-andrew-marr-lansley

May's going to have to slap him down again, isn't she?

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 25/09/2016 15:33

Most leave voters I know deeply regret it though - they hadn't realised about the many leave voters who thought this would make bigotry acceptable. Hadn't realised the financial implications in terms of London as a hub. Hadn't realised how much Eu money actually pays for. Hadn't even realised the NHS promises on the sides of buses were a lie.

PacificOcean · 25/09/2016 16:17

gonetosee If you don't mind me asking, is this a pension in payment that you're referring to? I didn't think that in-payment pensions had been affected?

RedToothBrush · 25/09/2016 16:34

www.thechicagocouncil.org/blog/global-insight/louis-b-susman-lecture-transatlantic-relations-george-osborne-mp
Couldn't post this on Friday as I've been away. Its the full transcript of Osborne's speech in Chicago. Its a very good read and raises questions that frankly the Labour Party should be raising. With the resignation of a minister already you have to start asking where May will be really challenged? By Labour or by her own party. Remember this speech is timed in the run up to the Tory party conference so perhaps more important than you might think, even though outside the UK. The particular audience was an international one - again more pressure from outside.

Then there's this:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37465452
Cameron Aides with knifes out for May with the suggestion that SHE was weak on pre-ref deal Cameron came up with because she didn't want to upset Merkel.

Original copy of article here. Its MUST READ material. Especially since No10 has jumped on it strongly by the sound of it. There is either truth in it, or they are worried about the stirrings of rebellion. I note the relationship between Hammond and May in this too.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 25/09/2016 16:34

www.thechicagocouncil.org/blog/global-insight/louis-b-susman-lecture-transatlantic-relations-george-osborne-mp
Couldn't post this on Friday as I've been away. Its the full transcript of Osborne's speech in Chicago. Its a very good read and raises questions that frankly the Labour Party should be raising. With the resignation of a minister already you have to start asking where May will be really challenged? By Labour or by her own party. Remember this speech is timed in the run up to the Tory party conference so perhaps more important than you might think, even though outside the UK. The particular audience was an international one - again more pressure from outside.

Then there's this:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37465452
Cameron Aides with knifes out for May with the suggestion that SHE was weak on pre-ref deal Cameron came up with because she didn't want to upset Merkel.

Original copy of article here. Its MUST READ material. Especially since No10 has jumped on it strongly by the sound of it. There is either truth in it, or they are worried about the stirrings of rebellion. I note the relationship between Hammond and May in this too.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 25/09/2016 16:37

www.thechicagocouncil.org/blog/global-insight/louis-b-susman-lecture-transatlantic-relations-george-osborne-mp
Couldn't post this on Friday as I've been away. Its the full transcript of Osborne's speech in Chicago. Its a very good read and raises questions that frankly the Labour Party should be raising. With the resignation of a minister already you have to start asking where May will be really challenged? By Labour or by her own party. Remember this speech is timed in the run up to the Tory party conference so perhaps more important than you might think, even though outside the UK. The particular audience was an international one - again more pressure from outside.

Then there's this:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37465452
Cameron Aides with knifes out for May with the suggestion that SHE was weak on pre-ref deal Cameron came up with because she didn't want to upset Merkel over free movement of people.

Original copy of article here. Its MUST READ material. Especially since No10 has jumped on it strongly by the sound of it. There is either truth in it, or they are worried about the stirrings of rebellion. I note the relationship between Hammond and May in this too.

OP posts: