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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

OP posts:
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twofingerstoGideon · 23/09/2016 19:50

I think it might be best not to watch QT next week. It's coming from Boston, Lincs - the Brexit heartlands.
I expect to hear lots of gems from people like this: link to article

A tattooed 57-year-old grandmother of 16 rises from her chair and points to the other houses in turn.

“Polish,” she says. “Polish… Polish, Polish, Polish… All down our street. They should send the f*ing lot back.”

“They took all the English jobs,” she says. “Kids can’t get spaces in the schools. They can’t get houses. But if you’re Polish, you get moved in straight away…”

And the panel comprises Michael O'Leary, Nigel Lawson, Lisa Nandy, Benjamin Zephaniah, Isabel Oakeshott.

SwedishEdith · 23/09/2016 20:07

I know, I saw that. It's just a bear pit now - easier to follow it on Twitter.

TheBathroomSink · 23/09/2016 20:17

And the panel comprises Michael O'Leary, Nigel Lawson, Lisa Nandy, Benjamin Zephaniah, Isabel Oakeshott.

They really pushed the boat out to get the most disagreeable people they could there, didn't they? O'Leary and Oakeshott at the same time? I'd end up breaking the mute button watching that. Poor Lisa Nandy.

SwedishEdith · 23/09/2016 20:20

I can't believe it's got to the point where we're saying nice things about Osborne Shock. But, in Ed Balls' book, he says that he got on with Osborne. He said Cameron was aloof and would just blank him and avoid eye contact whereas Osborne was perfectly pleasant and personable. Can't find the article now where I read it. Wasn't he was Andrew Marr's best man or friend or something. Maybe just no-one explained economics to him?

Also, why do the rest of the Johnson family seem, relatively, normal whilst Boris seems so, I don't know, damaged?

Oh, and back to trying to name decent tories - Heidi Allen?

Peregrina · 23/09/2016 20:27

I hope the Poles and Lithuanians in Boston do start to go home and leave the nasty racists to it. The racists will have to find something else to complain about then, which they will.

Talking about the murders there, there were three in my own town last year, which shocked everyone. One was committed by a mentally ill person, the others were 'domestic' disputes. None involved foreigners of any sort.

HesterThrale · 23/09/2016 20:40

Well I'm surprised at attempts to find GO palatable. Didn't he start the austerity agenda, causing horribly damaging cuts to public services and the welfare system? And I'm no economist, but there would have been alternative ways of dealing with the deficit, I believe.

StripeyMonkey1 · 23/09/2016 21:27

This speaks volumes: "The government is refusing to allow its legal opponents to reveal its explanation of why it ought to be able to use royal prerogative powers to trigger article 50."

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/23/anti-brexit-group-mounts-legal-challenge-over-article-50-proposal?CMP=share_btn_link

I have been trying to find information on the basis of the legal challenge online with no success. It appears that the government is no prepared for it's own arguments on the use of prerogative powers to be made public. I wonder what they are. Any thoughts from any lawyers on here?

Peregrina · 23/09/2016 23:21

And this when people wanted to take back control and have sovereignity. But now have a potentially dictatorial government deciding that they will be the only ones who have a say.

tiggytape · 23/09/2016 23:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Peregrina · 24/09/2016 00:41

I think what I find the most frustrating about the Brexit means Brexit mantra, is that there appears to be no attempt whatever to find out exactly the majority of Leavers want. The three options seem to be Sovereignity, more money for the NHS and Immigration. Most people e.g. in Cornwall and Sunderland are not affected by immigration. By apparently settling on Immigration, IMO Theresa May has given into the racists.

GloriaGaynor · 24/09/2016 09:44

I don't think the Tories care what the 'people' want, or Parliament. The different factions are using this vote to try to pursue their own agendas.

We know from Clegg that May has had issues with immigration, I think her focus on immigration is a personal preoccupation. I don't think she ever was a sincere whole-hearted Remainer, and she's certainly a soft Brexiteer now, her advisor (can't remember his name) and Hammond too. And then there are the hard Brexit twits.

It's all about the Tories fighting it out for their Brexit visions.

SwedishEdith · 24/09/2016 10:43

It's all about the Tories fighting it out for their Brexit visions

It's all about the Tories fighting it out for the survival of the tory party.

Peregrina · 24/09/2016 10:55

It's all about the Tories fighting it out for the survival of the tory party.

Yes, and with Labour busy with its own infighting, that has been overlooked. Labour (and the rest, bar the DUP who vote with the Tories) should have been getting together to hammer the Government.

HyacinthFuckit · 24/09/2016 10:59

We know from May's behaviour as Home Secretary that she's had issues with immigration. She presided over massive reform to the Immigration Rules. Some of which, such as raising the income threshold to sponsor a spouse, she's succeeded in. Some of which, such as attempting to basically codify Article 8 ECHR into the Immigration Rules she has, astonoshingly enough, failed quite hard at. But her views on immigration are not a new thing. Of course, this is non-EU immigration rather than EU. There are people who want much more of one and much less of another.

SwedishEdith · 24/09/2016 11:06

Don't know if anyone else follows Bonnie Greer on Twitter but her political analysis is very incisive. She's been saying for months that the big split is in the tory party and the media ignores it. In fact, just remembered she's on QT next week so I may have to watch it. She won't take any shit from any racists on there.

SwedishEdith · 24/09/2016 11:09

Yes, May has failed quite spectacularly on her immigration agenda which should give her an idea that it's not going to as simple as 'Do X and Y will happen'.

HyacinthFuckit · 24/09/2016 11:14

I also think May was a reasonably sincere Remainer in that she seemed to think it was what was best, pragmatically. Not because she particularly likes the EU but it would be more trouble than it's worth to leave. Wouldn't necessarily sign up to it now but since we're in, might as well hang around, type thing. Not a wholehearted endorsement, of course, but that's not to say it wasn't sincerely felt.

TheBathroomSink · 24/09/2016 11:59

In fact, just remembered she's on QT next week

I wonder which list is right? Twofingers says Oakeshott, Nandy, Zephaniah, O'Leary and Lawson. Swedish and wiki say Greer, Thornberry, Priti Patel and Rod Liddle.

Although, I'm not sure either of them will be watchable. Thornberry, Patel and Liddle on screen at the same time might cause my tv to acquire a cracked screen from me throwing stuff at it.

lalalonglegs · 24/09/2016 12:02

I'm pretty sure I remember DD saying it would be the Greer/Thornberry/Patel/Liddle line up when he was plugging the next programme.

Listening to Corbyn's speech - feeling depressed that his big rallying call is a protest against grammar schools next Saturday. It looks as if the Tories themselves will bury that May initiative: what about bleeding Brexit?

Peregrina · 24/09/2016 12:04

I agree that the media is ignoring the Tory party splits - to go on and on about how Corbyn is making Labour unelectable. Looking at the Local Government results, Labour have lost some, the Tories more, and UKIP hasn't done especially well, except in the Farridge heartlands of Kent. The Lib Dems have picked up a good few gains. I know that Local Government results don't translate to GE results, but it's still a sign that all is not well with the Tories.

Peregrina · 24/09/2016 12:07

Oh I see, Corbyn has just been re-elected as Labour leader, with 61.8% of the vote. Now if 52% is a good enough mandate for Brexit, then 61.8% should be considered more than sufficient endorsement of Corbyn.

SwedishEdith · 24/09/2016 12:36

DD did announce 2 future episodes so I may have got them mixed up. Patel - oh, god.

merrymouse · 24/09/2016 12:38

I don't think anybody doubted that he would be elected to lead the Labour Party. His problem is getting support from the 99% of the population that isn't in the Labour Party.

twofingerstoGideon · 24/09/2016 12:47

Question Time info from here

twofingerstoGideon · 24/09/2016 12:50

DD did plug two episodes of QT and I definitely remember him mentioning Emily Thornberry, too. Maybe she'll be on in two weeks' time (or the Beeb website linked above has got its facts wrong!)