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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

OP posts:
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TheBathroomSink · 22/09/2016 22:57

I watched it. It says effectively an end of the year clip show, although Alan Duncan was fairly amusing.

Jacob Rees Mogg on QT has just mentioned leaving the customs union, clearly he's been reading peston's Facebook. But apparently it will all be ok, because German card and French champagne....

I have the mute button ready for Julia Hartley Brewer.

TheBathroomSink · 22/09/2016 23:08

Or even German cars.

SwedishEdith · 22/09/2016 23:32

QT is awful. After watching a Trump fan on C4 news riding round in a golf cart with 'That Bitch' on a piece of card, who just shrugged when Kylie Morris patiently explained she found it offensive, I think I may start to opt out of news/life. Everyone has become so horrible and unkind. Sad

Peregrina · 23/09/2016 09:15

The Tories had an extremely comfortable win in Adderbury - which is not all that surprising really.
I haven't looked up any other results.

Peregrina · 23/09/2016 09:19

Teignbridge - Lib Dems gain from Cons with a dismal turnout.
LD Alison Eden 491
Con 286
UKIP 111
Lab 72
Majority 205 Turnout 25.08%

TheBathroomSink · 23/09/2016 10:02

Old Stratford (South Northamptonshire) result:
CON: 77.2% (+77.2)
UKIP: 22.8% (+22.8)
Conservative HOLD.
Con previously elected unopposed.

Adderbury, Bloxham & Bodicote (Cherwell) result:
CON: 57.4% (+8.5)
LAB: 16.2% (-0.3)
GRN: 15.7% (-5.5)
LDEM: 10.7% (-2.8)

Cilycwm result:
PC: 27.8% (+27.8)
IND: 20.9% (+20.9)
LAB: 17.0% (+17.0)
IND: 14.7% (+14.7)
PF: 8.9% (+8.9)
LD: 8.6% (+8.6)
CON: 2.1% (-17.2)

Christchurch (Allerdale) result:
LAB: 40.7% (+5.8)
LDEM: 29.4% (+20.0)
CON: 25.9% (-19.3)
UKIP: 4.0% (+4.0)

TheBathroomSink · 23/09/2016 10:04

Chopwell & Rowlands Gill (Gateshead) result:
LAB: 59.1% (-3.7)
UKIP: 15.6% (+1.3)
LDEM: 12.3% (+7.9)
CON: 8.6% (-2.3)
GRN: 4.4% (-3.2)

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 10h10 hours ago
Labour GAIN Arley & Whitacre (North Warwickshire) from Conservative.

No details on that one yet though.

Peregrina · 23/09/2016 10:48

Apparently the Tories didn't expect to win Arley & Whitacre in May, so it looks as though it's gone and reverted to what it used to be.

lalalonglegs · 23/09/2016 14:31

Well, as predicted, George Osborne has no intention of keeping quiet on the backbenches. Yes, he's loathsome but, yes, I am grateful to him for rattling his cage a bit and he is speaking from experience which is interesting.

I remember a couple of years ago, reading an article where he was described as the ultimate Westminster schmoozer - he is apparently very, very good at forging relationships across the benches and keeping in touch with all the things going on in other parties through this network of contacts and friendships (surprisingly his wife is BFFs with Ed Milliband's missus). We definitely have not heard the last of him.

merrymouse · 23/09/2016 14:51

We definitely have not heard the last of him

One thing about the current crop of party leaders on both sides of the Atlantic is that they are all too old to dominate politics for long - they won't be Blairs or Thatchers.

(I hope - if Trump is really likely to win two terms we all need to stock up on canned goods).

Peregrina · 23/09/2016 15:03

“Brexit won a majority. Hard Brexit did not,” Osborne said. At least he is being true to what he campaigned for. And why not? He was booted out by May, so what has he to lose? Unlike a lot of Remain MPs who are now singing the Brexit tune, because they still hope for further advancement in their political careers. I think May has made a potentially dangerous enemy there. Lord O'Niell, who was also associated with George Osbourne, has also resigned the Tory whip, to sit as a crossbencher.

Peregrina · 23/09/2016 15:08

Osborne is definitely still 'young' in political terms. He could easily bide his time for 5 years or even 10 years.

Corcory · 23/09/2016 15:09

I don't think TM is old. She's only about 60 so has plenty of life left in her!
I can't say that any of our leaders look old!
As for Trump - well I'm hoping that he might get himself impeached if he gains office! Maybe one of the rape allegations stick !

missmoon · 23/09/2016 15:18

A senior academic (professor) I know was involved in a number of policy roundtables, and had a lot of dealings with George Osborne. My friend is very much from a northern / working class / labour voting background, but he told me several times that out of the Tory lot, George Osborne was the most reasonable one, and the only one he had some sort of respect for. It seemed quite striking to me at the time, but makes a bit more sense now.

GloriaGaynor · 23/09/2016 15:20

he is apparently very, very good at forging relationships across the benches and keeping in touch with all the things going on in other parties

It's a shame he wasn't so good at forging relationships and keeping in touch with the country, particularly those worst hit by austerity, or we wouldn't be in this mess.

I suppose in desperate times we have to be grateful that he's sticking around to fight it, rather than legging it a la Cameron.

Peregrina · 23/09/2016 15:21

The PMs often age quickly in Office. Blair certainly did.

Maggie Thatcher was only 49 when she was elected to lead the Tory party and 53 when they won the election. Harold Wilson was 48. Heath was much the same age as Wilson, so would have been in his early 50s when he became PM. Major was 49. So I would say that by today's standards May is relatively old.

Peregrina · 23/09/2016 15:25

George Osborne was the most reasonable one,

I've heard that from others. Cameron appeared friendly but was a bit of a sh*t in practice. Osborne came across as aloof when shown in Parliament, but was easier to get on with on a personal level.

I thought he would resign shortly after Cameron. I suppose he still might stand down at the next election. I imagine it depends on how the next couple of years go for him.

twofingerstoGideon · 23/09/2016 16:12

Theresa May appoints Minister for Contradicting Brexit Ministers

it must be true because it's on the internet and wasn't written by an expert

DoinItFine · 23/09/2016 16:37
Grin

LOL twofingers

TheForeignOffice · 23/09/2016 17:17

Brilliant Grin

officerhinrika · 23/09/2016 18:16

I was disappointed that Jaqui Thompson didn't win Cilycwm in Carmarthenshire for People First. She is a constant thorn in the side of the County Council, almost a one woman Audit Commission. Her blog Carmarthenplanning.blogspot is well written and worth a look. She has been through the mill!

officerhinrika · 23/09/2016 18:18

Oh and well done everyone that managed Question Time! I just saw the words Jacob Rees Mogg and decided on an early night...

prettybird · 23/09/2016 18:21

Can I ask an ignorant question (and yes, I know I can go and google it)?

What is the voting system for local elections in England & Wales? Is it FPTP or STV?

lalalonglegs · 23/09/2016 18:29

It's FPTP but when it is full local elections (rather than just a by-election), voters generally get to vote for three councillors in their ward rather than a single nomination as they would in a general election.

prettybird · 23/09/2016 19:19

Aaah - that explains things. It's STV in Scotland, even in by-elections when it doesn't really work as it's designed for multi candidate wards

So it's difficult to see trends in quite the same way.

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