Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
Mistigri · 22/09/2016 12:03

In the circumstances it be good to have someone from the sane wing of the tory party in the foreign office. Not many left to choose from. Maybe Andrew Tyrie or Dominic Grieve. Not going to happen of course.

Peregrina · 22/09/2016 14:36

More info about today's by elections

Living in Oxfordshire, I am particularly interested in Adderbury, Bloxham and Bodicote. The resigning Tory councillor has fallen out with his party over Brexit. I would love to know a bit more about this. Cherwell District, of which this is part, very narrowly voted Leave, by something like 50.5% (from memory), whereas the City and south, where I live, was overwhelmingly Remain.

tiggytape · 22/09/2016 17:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GloriaGaynor · 22/09/2016 17:38

A Tory with integrity. I'm impressed.

HesterThrale · 22/09/2016 17:49

There are a couple... Sarah Wollaston springs to mind. Osborne though - no thanks.

TheNorthRemembers · 22/09/2016 18:19

Nigel Randall for Tory leader!

Peregrina · 22/09/2016 18:28

Good for him! I had wondered if he was strongly pro-Brexit and worried about slow progress.

SwedishEdith · 22/09/2016 18:29

Could be very wrong, but following Jo Cox's death, Andrew Mitchell appeared to be a little more reasonable. And his work on refugees would make him a capable candidate.

Peregrina · 22/09/2016 18:47

Turnout is apparently very slow in the Adderbury by election. Still, we shall see what happens.

RedToothBrush · 22/09/2016 20:06

David Allen Green ‏@DavidAllenGreen
May's creation of the two pop-up Brexit departments seemed daft at the time. Seems even dafter now.

The below is copied from Robert Peston's Facebook today:
www.facebook.com/pestonitv/posts/1697230203935051

If you run into Theresa May, could you please put the following to her.

When she decided to create an expensive new department for international trade, and put Liam Fox in charge, did she know she would be seen as announcing that the UK would be leaving the EU's customs union?

You may have heard her say that all our options are open in respect of our future trading relationship with the EU.

But the facts tell a contrary story (I choose my words carefully): once Fox was mandated to prepare the ground for future bilateral trade deals with the likes of China, the US and Australia, it became almost inconceivable that the UK could remain in the customs union.

This is a point of inescapable logic. And I am slightly surprised it has not exploded into a big political controversy (though that probably has something to do with the way Labour MPs are engaged in bashing each other rather than holding the government to account).

Here is why we cannot stay in the customs union, and have an international trade minister.

First of all it is a rule that members of the customs union are prohibited from negotiating free trade deals with countries in the rest of the world (there is relatively trivial flexibility for Turkey, which is a non-EU member of the customs union, but not the degree of flexibility that would be any use to us).

But that prohibition would not matter perhaps if it was irrational - because we could have some expectation of negotiating a way around it.

However EU governments would be nuts - economically suicidal in fact - for them to give customs union members free rein to negotiate their own bilateral deals with third-party countries.

Because that would give those non-EU countries an invaluable backdoor route into the EU's gloriously lucrative market.

Just imagine if the UK as a customs union member did a free trade deal with China. That would allow China to swamp the EU with tariff-free goods, without formal permission from the EU via an EU-China trade deal.

The EU would no longer have any power to negotiate its own trading relationship with China.

So it's overwhelmingly clear that the EU cannot let Liam Fox do his trade-negotiating thing and also allow the UK to stay in the customs union.

But, you will ask, does this matter? Can't we just do a free trade deal with the EU like the one Canada has negotiated (see what I wrote about this over the summer - www.facebook.com/pestonitv/posts/1675210406137031).

Well the point about being in the customs union is it makes it easier and cheaper for British-based manufacturers to trade with the rest of the EU than any trade deal would deliver.

In the customs union, they can sell their cars, and missiles and electronic chips to other EU countries without incurring tariffs and without having to prove that the content of those goods is largely made in Britain.

Think for a second about why it is incredibly helpful to British makers that they don't have to prove country of origin, as part of the customs union.

Well, in a typical motor car or aircraft wing or chocolate or pharmaceutical there are loads and loads of ingredients and components that are manufactured outside the UK.

Or to put it another way, a great deal of British manufacturing - and a great deal of manufacturing everywhere - is actually the assembly of parts, kit and compounds actually made all over the world.

So the great advantage for a Ford, or a BAE or a Jaguar LandRover of the UK being in the customs union is they can sell their stuff to the rest of the EU without having to prove that the finished item is truly British, rather than a foreign wolf in British clothes.

But, you may say, when Canada's trade deal with the EU is implemented (and goodness knows when that will be) won't that be as beneficial for Canadian companies as being in the customs union?

Absolutely not.

Because when selling to the EU, Canadian companies will have to prove that their goods really are Canadian, and are not - for instance - Chinese thingummies masquerading as Canadian goods.

And that will be expensive and inconvenient for Canada.

So for British makers being in the customs union is quite a big deal.

And they are deeply concerned that the appointment of Fox means we'll be out of the customs union.

As it happens he broadly acknowledged they were right to be worried when he told a recent meeting of companies hosted at the CBI (which I wrote about here - www.facebook.com/pestonitv/posts/1694289837562421) that the bothersome facts about our trade relationship with the EU did rather get in the way of us getting an optimal trading relationship.

So the mere fact that Fox is international trade minister - and is as we speak recruiting a team of highly paid trade negotiators- makes it a fiduciary obligation for Japanese, American, Indian and other multinational manufacturers based in Britain to start thinking about moving investment and jobs to the rest of the EU.

Ouch.

But if Theresa May hears their concerns and sticks to the line that we may be able to stay in the customs union, she would have to concede that Fox is redundant, and she is wasting a ton of public money in creating his department.
So the choice for her is painful: admit either that Fox is as much use as a fish on a bicycle or own up that we're out of the customs union (or perhaps ask Boris Johnson to fess up on this, since one of his great lines during the Brexit campaign is we could have wonderfully lucrative new trade deals all over the world while staying in the customs union).

OP posts:
StripeyMonkey1 · 22/09/2016 20:17

Fox is redundant and he is obnoxious. Seems like a no-brainer to get rid of him. Unfortunately it is looking increasing like he will actually get to negotiate on our behalf with the rest of the world.

In other news, Boris seems troublingly gung ho about invoking article 50 early next year: www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/22/boris-johnson-uk-aiming-start-eu-brexit-talks-early-2017?CMP=share_btn_link

SwedishEdith · 22/09/2016 20:18

"But if Theresa May hears their concerns and sticks to the line that we may be able to stay in the customs union, she would have to concede that Fox is redundant, and she is wasting a ton of public money in creating his department."

Or that she is keeping Fox off her back - give him an important-looking but futile job? I can, honestly, imagine these departments were set up on the back of an envelope with no idea of what the could, realistically, do.

That we, the UK, is wasting a ton of money goes without saying. All those resources diverted from real work to either result in us standing still or being worse off.

RedToothBrush · 22/09/2016 20:21

Philip Sim Verified account @BBCPhilipSim
Zero punches pulled by Institute for Government during Brexit questioning...
"Will there be a constitutional crisis?"
"Probably, yes."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37438818

But Mr Paun said the Brexit process was "likely to reopen far more elements of our internal territorial constitution than anyone has quite got their heads around yet", and warned that the legislation setting out Holyrood's powers may need to be reassessed.

He said: "We may come out of this with a very different set of constitutional arrangements both for governing the distribution of powers between different governments and also in areas where the UK takes back competence from Brussels.

"We may need new arrangements for coordinating policy between the levels of government as well.

"I think the UK government certainly hasn't quite realised the whole box of issues that this opens up.

"I think it's pretty much inevitable that the design of the constitutional settlement and the Scotland Act will need to be revisited as part of this process.

Dear Mrs May. Are we between a rock and a hard place or are we out of the frying pan and into the fire?

Just so we know what Brexit actually means...

As for Gideon, I've always just had the impression of him that he's led an incredibly sheltered life and not really had much of a clue rather than being a 'good' or 'bad' bloke as such. Tatton is not exactly a constituency full of local issues. My impression is that he has just been rather protected from the reality of things rather than being actively deliberately nasty.

OP posts:
merrymouse · 22/09/2016 20:24

Or that she is keeping Fox off her back - give him an important-looking but futile job?

That involves lots of travel to far away places...

RedToothBrush · 22/09/2016 20:29

Stripey, No.10 have already said that Boris is talking out of his arse.

www.ft.com/content/84f4f9e4-80ee-11e6-8e50-8ec15fb462f4?ftcamp=published_links%2Frss%2Fworld_uk_politics%2Ffeed%2F%2Fproduct

This is now Davis, Johnson and Fox that May has undermined and said are talking bollocks.

That corner May is painting herself into is starting to look lonely and rather interesting. There is a limit to how much she can do this before it starts to be a problem not just from everyone else but also from within her own party. Indeed own Cabinet.

Hammond seems to be flip flopping on the single market too.

OP posts:
StripeyMonkey1 · 22/09/2016 20:41

Oh good. Thanks Red.

I wonder whether May has an exit strategy from the situation she has set up. Is she hoping that we will be so relieved if she calls time on hard Brexit that we will forgive and forget? Or is she a true believer in the UK as a an ultra free market economy? She must have some strategy.. surely.

StripeyMonkey1 · 22/09/2016 20:43

Is this all talk to attempt to hardball the EU maybe? Then we offer a soft Brexit late in the day.. on terms of course. That might make sense.

SwedishEdith · 22/09/2016 20:45

David Allen Green ‏@DavidAllenGreen 22m22 minutes ago
Brexit meaning Brexit in practice:

  1. Brexit minister makes substantive statement on Brexit.
  1. Disowned by Downing Street.

And loop.

David Allen Green ‏@DavidAllenGreen 25m25 minutes ago
David Allen Green Retweeted A J Perrigo
No.

David Allen Green added,
A J Perrigo @UniversalEvent
@DavidAllenGreen @ftwestminster They do not have a clue, do they?
0 retweets 2 likes
Reply Retweet

Like 2

More

mathanxiety · 22/09/2016 20:51

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/uk-no-access-to-the-eu-market-if-it-ends-free-movement-enda-kenny-irish-prime-minister-a7239686.html

This comment sums up the development well:

'MacTurk'
"Mr Enda Kenny, the Irish Taoiseach, has basically announced a major shift in Irish policy, and not one of the obsessively stupid Brexiteers has noticed.....

When the Brexit vote result was announced, the Irish reaction was "We must do all we can to make sure that the UK gets the best deal possible, the softest Brexit on the menu".

Now, he is telling you that your last ally in the EU has given up on the delusional UK government.

The Irish government has accepted that there will only be a hard Brexit, and the back channels to Belfast will be buzzing...

The UK is now, officially, Johnny No-Mates.

The Irish will now focus on their own national interests, hopefully in tandem with the Northern Irish administration....

In terms of our national interests, we cannot be seen to be supporting the UK at this time, given how utterly divorced from reality they are...."

I remain gobsmacked at the level of anger and the bloody-minded isolationism expressed by the Leave commenters on that article and elsewhere. It's like an eruption.

lalalonglegs · 22/09/2016 21:00

I wonder if TM is keeping her powder dry for the Conservative Party Conference - surely she won't get away with just bleating "Brexit means Brexit" there? The party members will be wanting her to set out her stall and it will be hard for her not to say something substantive.

My bet is that if she doesn't say something meaningful in Birmingham, then Article 50 is going to be kicked into the long grass.

Unicornsarelovely · 22/09/2016 21:33

Unfortunately I think much of the anti- free movement hard Brexit talk is driven by May. Despite being unsuccessful in reducing non-EU immigration she blamed most of the failures on membership of the EU.

That's why I think the 350m for the NHS etc have all been binned and the only one downing st actually mentions is the end of free movement.

Unicornsarelovely · 22/09/2016 21:35

Peregrina : thanks for the by election references. I'm on the Cherwell district side of ox and leave won by 150 votes or so so pretty narrow given the rural and older nature of the constituency compared with the city and south.

Peregrina · 22/09/2016 22:05

Anti immigration sentiment always plays well at the Tory party conferences. Especially from the blue rinse brigade, whose contact with immigrants is virtually zero.

TheNorthRemembers · 22/09/2016 22:46

Has anyone watched the Brexit documentary on BBC2? DH was watching it, but I had to come out of the room, I just felt so sick. I mean realistically I have seen every clip in it and read everything there is to read about it, but it is still a bit too raw.

Anna Soubry is my new favourite now.

Peston's post makes way too much sense. Scary to think of it rationally. I think May had some idea about what she would do in government, but I agree with Swedish that the Brexit departments were just back of an envelope kind of things.

Peregrina · 22/09/2016 22:48

I could only watch it for about twenty minutes and after that I could stand no more of Farridge's ugly mug.

Most of May's policies seem to be back of an envelop job. Take the education Green paper.

Swipe left for the next trending thread