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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

OP posts:
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GloriaGaynor · 21/09/2016 19:35

I don't think Gideon will ever work in this town again.

His policies are partially responsible for this fuck up.

lalalonglegs · 21/09/2016 19:56

Hmm, the EU wouldn't do a good deal with Greece and, if memory serves, it was pretty much a condition of doing any sort of deal at all that Yanis Varoufakis was made to resign. I'm not sure he is the most reliable commentator on these matters.

As has been endlessly pointed out before but is worth repeating: why would the EU want to treat us well? What's to stop other countries with Eurosceptic parties and disgruntled populations also demanding out if they see the UK getting some sort of sweetheart arrangement?

SwedishEdith · 21/09/2016 20:04

Feel slightly (slightly) warmer to Osborne after Ed Balls said that Cameron used to totally blank him in HoP but Osborne was always friendly.

mathanxiety · 21/09/2016 20:20

I think it is very accurate to point to a vacuum in politics.

The vacuum afflicts the Tories every bit as much as Labour, maybe even moreso - it's because the Tories are providing absolutely nothing by way of leadership that the problem in Labour is being cast into sharp relief.

I think Clegg has touched on an element of this that rings true too - this is not merely a political upheaval, but a crisis of national identity. As illustrated by the sort of rhetoric that resonated, and the 'hard Brexit no later than next Tuesday' comments on social media, the vacuum is caused by a breakdown of the critical faculties on a unprecedented level.

The refusal of large numbers of people to accept that there is such a thing as objective truth represents an enormous challenge to the parliamentary system. People are conflating fact and opinion with wild abandon. There is no common language of political discourse any more, no accepted foundation of facts on which conversations about the future can be set.

HyacinthFuckit · 21/09/2016 20:49

They are indeed gloria but everyone with any real experience is in some way on the hook for this, aren't they? Some more so than others, and you may well be right about him never working again. Especially not if May hangs around long enough for the next generation to come to the fore. But if he's going to, I think that's the blueprint to go for. We also can't rule out the possibility that he's doing this because he thinks it's for the best. Having been Chancellor, he's better placed than many to see just what a mess this could turn into. And he's correct that this is in no way done or dusted.

I also agree with math's point about political discourse. There are no certainties. It seems all to play for, which again I think might be another reason Gideon doesn't want to sit a few dances out. The new landscape is being created.

TheForeignOffice · 21/09/2016 21:08

I don't think Gideon will ever work in this town again.

Only couple of years ago I was saying the same thing about Liam Fox...and now he's King of Flipping Brexit Hmm

GO will be back in town soon enough. I can even see him burying the hatchet with Clegg now he's "reflected on his mistakes" and them teaming up to take May down.

Peregrina · 21/09/2016 21:21

I myself saw in Osborne's behaviour tentative steps to position himself for a leadership bid. This depends on how long May lasts.

TheBathroomSink · 21/09/2016 21:35

I don't think Osborne has given up hope of being leader, but I think it is going to take some sort of epic shift of opinion, and even if that did happen, he's going to get the Ed Miliband treatment in the press. Plus, he's a weasel.

Peregrina · 21/09/2016 21:41

Just imagine the nightmare scenario in say 5 years time of Osborne, Gove and Nicky Morgan on some 'dream ticket'. I know that some think Johnson will make a comeback, but I think he's finished myself - he's too lazy.

TheNorthRemembers · 21/09/2016 22:09

Tory insiders always used to that Cameron comes across as friendly to outsiders, while Osborne looks cold and sneery; but privately apparently Cameron is a lot less approachable and Osborne is quite good fun. I do not know where I read it, I certainly do not know any Tory insiders personally. But I can imagine Osborne positioning himself for the leadership.

He comes across quite reasonable [this sounds weird] and is championing the North. Any politician showing any interest in the North - even if it is newfound, as David Laws mentioned about Osborne in his book - is in my good books.

TheBathroomSink · 21/09/2016 22:12

Osborne, Gove and Morgan would set new records for how many people hated them before they even did anything. It's hard to think of a less appealing group, even just within the tories.

Johnson is probably going to get fed up with being poorly paid (by his standards) and required to do something other than photo opps.

TheBathroomSink · 21/09/2016 22:16

Osborne would sell the north to China in 4 seconds flat if they offered him something he wanted.

SwedishEdith · 21/09/2016 22:20

Osborne's got a northern constituency (and is about to lose it with the boundary changes). I suspect they might be the drivers for his love of the north. Very happy to be wrong though.

TheBathroomSink · 21/09/2016 22:42

Osborne's MP for Tatton, it's leafy Cheshire and footballers' wives country. He could swap to a nice Bucks safe seat, and the only difference he'd notice would be there might be a bit less drizzle!

But I suppose there is a small chance he's genuine.

Anna Soubry is about to be on the new political piss take show on dave, which should be entertaining if she's as candid as she was on newsnight.

Peregrina · 21/09/2016 22:46

Osborne's is not any old northern constituency though, is it? It's wealthy Tatton.

SwedishEdith · 21/09/2016 22:55

His constituents will be lots of small businessmen.

TheBathroomSink · 21/09/2016 22:57

Anna Soubry said she was stopped from getting as involved in the referendum debates as she wanted to, no10 wouldn't let her make the positive case for immigration.

She said leave voters wanted lots of different things but there was less division among remainers.

She's quite engaging.

HesterThrale · 22/09/2016 07:00

Remainers not only have their own newspaper -The New European - but will have their own radio station!

16millionrising.wixsite.com/16millionrising

What's THAT all about?!

HyacinthFuckit · 22/09/2016 07:17

Osborne was, in fairness, very involved in the whole Northern Powerhouse initiative long before the referendum. More so than a lot of Labour politicians actually. This interest of his isn't new.

It is, I presume, down to having a constituency in the north, specifically one bordering Manchester. Some of the criticism levelled at the initiative is that it's too Manchester focused, and that people in areas of the north that aren't already pretty economically successful and thriving won't benefit. There's something to that, and I don't suppose he gives a fuck about people in former pit villages with no industry now. Those people will also be correspondingly difficult for him to reach. But it makes a great deal of sense for someone who has a lot of constituents who commute into Manchester to want the city to do well economically, and to try and push an initiative he's long supported and seen the value of to his constituents. I mean, logically that is exactly what he should be doing. His constituency is extremely well heeled, but it does even better when Manchester thrives.

TheForeignOffice · 22/09/2016 07:21

On Anna Soubry, taken from her Wikipedia page:

In December 2013 Soubry remarked on The Andrew Marr Show that UKIP leader Nigel Farage looked "like somebody has put their finger up his bottom and he really rather likes it"; words described by Farage as a "foul-mouthed attack". Soubry later gave a two sentence apology, claiming that the comment was "light-hearted".[49] The apology followed a November debate on the BBC's Question Time when Soubry complained that UKIP was distributing leaflets suggesting that up to 29 million people could arrive in the UK from Romania and Bulgaria.[50] Pointing out that this was more than the combined population, Soubry told Farage he didn't talk facts, he talked prejudice and that the 1930s had taught Britain the dangers of xenophobia.[50] The New Statesman credited Soubry's "inspiring words" with reminding people that there are still Conservatives "who trade in facts not prejudices."[51]

My bold. As far as I'm concerned, she can join my new-and-improved-Osborne / Clegg revolution team. Welcome, Anna Wink

TheBathroomSink · 22/09/2016 08:40

She said that again last night, but I doubt she'll apologise for it this time!

twofingerstoGideon · 22/09/2016 09:12

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/alan-duncan-boris-johnson-brexit-a-very-british-coup-backed-leave-to-become-heir-to-tory-throne-a7321406.html?cmpid=facebook-post Oh dear. Apparently, Boris never really wanted Brexit. Who would have thunk it?

GloriaGaynor · 22/09/2016 09:21

Liam Fox wasn't associated with a particular failed policy though. (Not yet) He wasn't in the cabinet that long before he had to resign. (About a year I think). Gideon is one of the most hated politicians of our time and wedded to failed austerity and the punishment budget threat.

Clegg's book makes clear what a total arsehole he is. He really didn't give a shit about the effect of his policies on the poorest 20% and the sick and disabled.

He won't do the Remain cause any good by his association.

Peregrina · 22/09/2016 10:47

I thought we all knew that Boris didn't really back Leave and that his main aim was to become Tory PM. I hope the twerp has completely blown his chances sky high now.

As a matter of interest, who do you think would make a good Foreign Secretary? The role is less important than it was, but is still high profile.

twofingerstoGideon · 22/09/2016 11:01

Ken Clarke! Especially after he's had a few.
Joking apart... I can't think of any of the Tory big names who would make a good FS.