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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

OP posts:
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lalalonglegs · 21/09/2016 11:27

Owen Smith wants to remain. Chuka Umunna set up Vote Leave Watch to nail the politicos who reneged on campaign promises.

My MP is a Conservative, a remainer and she represents a constituency where the vote was about 75% remain - I haven't written to her yet, but I would be very interested to know what way she would vote should triggering Article 50 go through parliament. There is no moral argument that she could give for voting with the government but... she's recently been promoted so we'll see.

whatwouldrondo · 21/09/2016 11:37

That poll in the Telegraph is now at 67% who would prefer to remain. As well as the pressure from advertisers the Telegraph has targeted a younger market in recent years with articles directed at the concerns and culture of twenty something professionals, which of course many of its journalists are. That will certainly cause dissonance in it's readership on this issue.

twofingerstoGideon · 21/09/2016 11:40

lala why not write to your MP and ask her?

whatwould - 69% now!

Peregrina · 21/09/2016 11:46

My MP sounds the same as lala's. I have written and the first time got a standard reply which didn't answer my questions, so I wrote again asking the same questions, but more pointedly. No reply as yet.

SapphireStrange · 21/09/2016 12:09

Sadiq Khan was Remain and still wants a good deal, I think.

SapphireStrange · 21/09/2016 12:09

Oh and, oddly enough, George Osborne...

twofingerstoGideon · 21/09/2016 12:44

I was kind of thinking of MPs who have come right out and said 'Brexit is a shit idea', rather than ones who are now 'looking for a good deal'.

Are there any more of those?

Mistigri · 21/09/2016 12:53

That Telegraph poll is probably being flooded with remainers linking to the article (it's 71% remain now) but it's interesting that the leavers who have voted are split roughly 50:50 between soft and hard Brexit options (note: I'm ignoring votes cast by trolls for the "cake and eat it" option).

Of course this may mean nothing at all - the Telegraph's on-line readership is rather different to their paper readership.

whatwouldrondo · 21/09/2016 13:33

Cue the "Remoaners" hijack poll" stories!

tiggytape · 21/09/2016 13:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

winkywinkola · 21/09/2016 14:01

F

whatwouldrondo · 21/09/2016 14:34

There may be a plan

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.
GloriaGaynor · 21/09/2016 15:09

Could someone possibly link the Telegraph poll, I've been over the site twice and googled and I can't find it.

GloriaGaynor · 21/09/2016 15:20

lala If you're in London I wonder if we have the same MP?

A local Tory person turned up in my doorstep last night to invite me to drinks for new members with our MP.

I had to admit that I've never voted Tory in my life and I only joined earlier this year in order to vote against Boris or Gove for PM if it came to it. It almost did...

I suppose I could pitch up and collar her on Art 50.

TheBathroomSink · 21/09/2016 15:22

It's here www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/20/nigel-farage-needs-to-stop-telling-me-why-i-voted-for-brexit/ Gloria at the end of the article, but it takes forever to load because there's so many adverts on the page. It only shows up for me in Edge, not in Chrome, which is either because I use adblocker, or because I don't allow cookies on the DT site (which lets me read as many articles as I want!)

GloriaGaynor · 21/09/2016 16:21

Thanks very much. 73% Remain now.

I didn't agree with Johnston that he didn't vote for a 'dog's Brexit', that's precisely what he voted for.

lalalonglegs · 21/09/2016 17:25

Gloria - I am in London... SW London... My MP is not the new education secretary. Are we neighbours?

TheBathroomSink · 21/09/2016 17:42

My local 'paper' has been out interviewing people to see if they are happy with the way Brexit is going. So far they've found one bloke who says it was stupid for the city to vote out given how much money comes into it from the EU, and two pensioners who have said that if the politicians don't get on with making it happen, there will be a riot. The comments under the article could have been generated by a Ukip chatbot, they are so predictable. They don't care that it is the most complicated set of negotiations the country has attempted, and given that, it might be a good idea to take some time to figure out how best to go about it.

GloriaGaynor · 21/09/2016 18:03

We are. Wink

StripeyMonkey1 · 21/09/2016 18:15

Great commentary from Nick Clegg on the Tory approach to Brexit, from his speech at the Autumn Liberal Democrat conference, as reported in The Independent:

" '‘Brexit means Brexit’ – have you ever heard a more inane and disingenuous phrase in modern British political discourse?

It is used of course robotically by Theresa May to cover up, to camouflage the indignity of the paralysis at the heart of this Conservative government.

Now, lots of commentators have said that the government, the Conservatives, are in this state of paralysis because of the tension between their wish to trim freedom of movement and their wish to have access to the single market.

I actually think it goes much, much deeper than that.

The paralysis lies in the argument between the two sides of the Conservative brain. One part of the Conservative brain espouses free trade, and the great exporting prowess of the United Kingdom.

Untrammelled access into major markets, particularly in Europe on our doorstep.

The other side of the Conservative brain argues for a return to gunboat diplomacy and nineteenth century Parliamentary sovereignty.

These two things are un-negotiable. They are mutually incompatible. You cannot have untrammelled access to a single market which, remember, is a single market of rules, without abiding in one shape or form by those rules.

That is what will lead to gridlock under this hopeless government. That is why they find themselves up this Brexit creek… I mean never mind they don’t have a paddle… they don’t have a canoe… they don’t have a map.

They have absolutely no clue whatsoever."

PattyPenguin · 21/09/2016 18:28

This from Scientists for EU. Hope you can read it. Scientists for EU say we are "currently in Schrödinger's Brexit -- we've left, but at the same time, we haven't."

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.
Mistigri · 21/09/2016 18:35

People who feel very strongly are more likely to participate in such polls and of course those who feel most strongly are hard remainers at the moment.

If you spend any time at all on Twitter, you will have noticed that hard-line leavers feel pretty strongly too.

It's for this reason that I find it curious that, of people who are bothered enough to vote, the leavers split about equally between hard and soft brexit. If this were replicated on a wider scale (I have no idea if it is) it suggests that a hard Brexit approach might be a risky electoral strategy.

Incidentally this makes me think that May will not want Brexit to have actually happened before the next GE. It may be better for the tories if the electorate still don't know what it really means.

HyacinthFuckit · 21/09/2016 19:20

Oh and, oddly enough, George Osborne...

I don't actually think that's odd at all. I think that's his best bet at relevance. He could, as others have suggested, hang around on the backbenches for a decade or so, see how it all shakes down, and then come back and make a leadership bid in 2030 or whatever, but it doesn't surprise me that he's decided against it.

After all, what we have now is something of a vacuum in politics. No certainties and big beasts dropping off all over the place. That's part of the reason May was so appealing, because she was the safest pair of hands available. I wouldn't piss on the woman if she were on fire, and even I can see that. The other two potential leaders from Gideon's generation-ish, Johnson and Gove, have both been pretty comprehensively discredited and the former is being set up to fail even harder. Space to be filled. There's potentially a lot of mileage in being the Tory face of the save us from Brexit movement.

HesterThrale · 21/09/2016 19:27

Yanis Varoufakis on 4News now saying the EU is dying.

HesterThrale · 21/09/2016 19:28

Also saying the EU will definitely want to do a good deal with us.