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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

OP posts:
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SapphireStrange · 20/09/2016 13:41

While I cheer on the other member states giving the UK/May and her Brexit idiots cold hard truths, on the other hand I also worry that it'll push her to the inescapable conclusion that we need a full hard Brexit – no single market access and therefore no need to negotiate/compromise on freedom of movement or any other EU privileges.

Which I think will leave the UK a smoking ruin.

twofingerstoGideon · 20/09/2016 14:38

You's like to think parliament would have the sense to stop her doing that, Sapphire.
(not said very confidently...)

Peregrina · 20/09/2016 16:11

Parliament seems to have taken leave of its senses at the moment. It's as though they have been mesmerised by Brexit means Brexit, Brexit means Brexit, Brexit means zzzzzzz.

SapphireStrange · 20/09/2016 16:19

I'm kind of relying on the court actions and/or House of Lords to take the sensible view.

Which is a bit scary in itself, isn't it.

twofingerstoGideon · 20/09/2016 16:38

I think the House of Lords might be more sensible. They don't need to worry about being re-elected.

SapphireStrange · 20/09/2016 16:56

I don't know how much power they actually have at the end of the day, though.

TheForeignOffice · 20/09/2016 17:00

I think unfortunately substantial pain may be required before common sense awakens...article from today's FT regarding passporting loss impact.

www.ft.com/content/cf6865c5-7916-3709-b9a7-05b20f4e345c

SwedishEdith · 20/09/2016 18:37

This isn't specifically Brexit but is a good article about the rise of the nationalist vote from angry white people

www.vox.com/2016/9/19/12933072/far-right-white-riot-trump-brexit

missmoon · 20/09/2016 19:34

This article by Martin Wolf for the FT sounds very interesting "Theresa May limbers up for a hard Brexit" www.ft.com/content/3328547a-7e3d-11e6-bc52-0c7211ef3198 but unfortunately I don't have a subscription, and the googling the title trick is not working for me anymore. Would anyone with an FT subscription be able to summarise the gist of it? Thank you!

SwedishEdith · 20/09/2016 19:59

I got it by googling. Gist is hard Brexit is only politically achievable result - "Brexiters would go berserk" Grin. I'd add more beserk. It will take absolutely years, but needs to be fast. "In all this, the crucial negotiation, to accompany talks under Article 50, is over transitional arrangements, to ensure the UK does not lose all preferential access to EU markets upon leaving."

Comments are good e.g. "When Tata said they would shut Port Talbot, the entire political class went into overdrive to find ways to avoid the catastrophe of 11,000 lost jobs - and the knock on effects. Rightly. Now we all cheerfully contemplate losing ten times that number of highly paid jobs in the financial sector to Paris, Frankfurt or Dublin, and we don't care. Of course, many of the people won't be out of work, because they'll move... and anyway they're bankers so beyond the political pale.... but those who are supported by them won't be so well. And all the tax on their incomes will get paid to another government so all those who depend on financial sector taxes to support schools and hospitals throughout the UK will be having to dip into their own pockets. The exodus will start when Article 50 is exercised, because no one can afford to wait and see, and because Martin is right that hard Brexit is the only conceivable outcome. All the noise about respecting the democratic mandate, but I don't think there was a majority for hard Brexit..."

Peregrina · 20/09/2016 20:18

www.richardcorbett.org.uk/truths-myths-fabians/

This is a good article detailing the problems to be faced just negotiating Brexit. This is before we start making trade agreements with everyone else.

SwedishEdith · 20/09/2016 20:35

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam 1h1 hour ago
I've spoken to 4 EU leaders at UN General Assembly in NY - talking tough. One told me privately "UK has no leverage... Apart from security"

TheBathroomSink · 20/09/2016 21:01

Telegraph columnist arguing for soft Brexit.

Notable remarks:
"Brexit has spawned a new orthodoxy. To question it is to be denounced as a heretic. This doctrine holds that in the referendum on June 23 the country voted to curb immigration and, by extension, for the UK to leave the European single market. This creed is now recited so often that it appears to be framing the Government’s thinking as it contemplates beginning the process to take us out of the EU. "

"It is asserted that the 17.5m who voted to leave did so with a particular vision of the UK’s future in mind but that is simply not the case. I argued for Brexit but would be content if we rejoined the European Free Trade Association (Efta) which we helped found in 1960 and belonged to before entering the Common Market in 1973. "

"Another false assertion bandied about since June 23 is that the result was a mandate for a specific set of demands. Nigel Farage said the British people "were clear in wanting a points-based immigration system, which is why so many went out and voted to Leave the European Union." But referendums are not elections with manifestos and sets of particular promises attached. This one was an expression of a will to do one thing – leave the EU – in a way that is clearly in the nation’s interests. No one voted for the country to be harmed."

"Yes, leave means leave; but the process must be managed in national, not sectional, interests otherwise it will be a dog’s Brexit. I didn’t vote for that."

I also liked the title: Nigel Farage needs to stop telling me why I voted for Brexit

Although if it were me writing it, I would probably have stopped at 'stop'.

It will be interesting to see if there are further soft-Brexit opinion columns in the paper, mainly because it goes against the arch-Kipper readership. If it does, it is quite possible that they are getting pressure from their advertisers to do so, because they get a lot of money from banks/asset management types, and they are known to bend the editorial line to suit the advertisers ahead of pandering to the readers.

missmoon · 20/09/2016 21:04

Thanks SwedishEdith! I tried deleting the cookies and now googling works again :)

SwedishEdith · 20/09/2016 21:14

Tbh, I've no sympathy for anyone who gets cross about this, ""Another false assertion bandied about since June 23 is that the result was a mandate for a specific set of demands. Nigel Farage said the British people "were clear in wanting a points-based immigration system, which is why so many went out and voted to Leave the European Union."

They were warned time and time again that this was Ukip's agenda and by voting Leave you were giving more oxygen to the racists.

So, I suspect you might be right about advertisers' pressure.

Figmentofmyimagination · 20/09/2016 21:30

I like this bit - "no one voted for the country to be harmed". That's simply not true. We know from the observations of the likes of Paul nuttall et al immediately after the vote that a significant number voted because "now you will know how it feels" to be poor/left out etc etc. "If I can't have it, nobody will".

SwedishEdith · 20/09/2016 21:52

And from the stirring up by Paul Nuttall, "They're sayin' yer towns are crap". No, you are Nuttall.

mathanxiety · 21/09/2016 00:51

I don't think the UK even has the leverage of security unless it is willing to cut off its nose to spite its face.

(Oh wait).

twofingerstoGideon · 21/09/2016 07:14

math at present, it looks very much like the country is willing to cut off its own nose.

Peregrina · 21/09/2016 08:06

And very few politicians have the guts to speak out to say, 'this is madness.' No, it's 'the people have spoken' because the politicians are shit scared of the UKIP vote.

SapphireStrange · 21/09/2016 10:20

It will be interesting to see if there are further soft-Brexit opinion columns in the paper, mainly because it goes against the arch-Kipper readership. If it does, it is quite possible that they are getting pressure from their advertisers to do so, because they get a lot of money from banks/asset management types, and they are known to bend the editorial line to suit the advertisers ahead of pandering to the readers.

Sink, that's such a good point that I hadn't thought about. I am watching the arc of the press coverage very carefully from now on!

Peregrina · 21/09/2016 10:35

After reading the Telegraph article, I got down to the poll at the end. I clicked the "I'd really rather we remained." option, and so did 56% of others.

I don't remember - did the Telegraph come out in favour of Remain?

twofingerstoGideon · 21/09/2016 10:38

And very few politicians have the guts to speak out to say, 'this is madness.' No, it's 'the people have spoken' because the politicians are shit scared of the UKIP vote.

So, which politicians have spoken out, instead of trotting out the old 'the people have spoken' nonsense?
Nicola Sturgeon
David Lammy
Ken Clarke

Can anyone add to this list? There are hopefully a few more!

twofingerstoGideon · 21/09/2016 10:40

Tim Farron

Peregrina · 21/09/2016 10:48

We need a few heavyweights in the Tory party. Clarke will retire shortly, Heseltine is very much a voice of the past.

Having said that, do the Tories do heavyweights anymore? If the three clowns May put in charge of Brexit are anything to go by, it doesn't seem so.

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