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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

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Peregrina · 16/09/2016 14:35

So Dyson is going to welcome Chinese and Indian engineers. Why isn't he calling for more investment in training up UK engineers?

whatwouldrondo · 16/09/2016 14:38

Yesterday my DD made exactly the point that Paddy Ashdown makes here www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/16/paddy-ashdown-i-turned-to-my-wife-and-said-its-not-our-country-any-more?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

“Leave aside the fact – which is good – that we don’t have mad militarists who want to go to war, everything else about our age reminds me of the 1930s. The fracture, the disrespect for the business of government, the hatred of the establishment. You see a retreat into isolationism, you see the rise of ugly forces, you see those who lie and make a pattern of lying ... As Goebbels said, if you’re going to tell a lie, tell a big one and tell it often. It’s hard not to think of the [£350m for the NHS] bus."

I agree with this too "most exchanges either begin or end – or both – with Brexit, an event about which he felt, “like everybody else, bereft; a sense of personal bereavement. I knew this was coming, a month before. You entertain hopes at the last moment, it’s always a shock. But we drove back to London over Salisbury Plain, it was one of those lovely June mornings. I turned to [his wife] Jane and I think there were probably tears in my eyes, and said, ‘It’s not our country any more.’”

So begins the prologue of his book, in which he writes that it seems to him “extraordinary that our besieged little country committed so many of its young men and women and so much of its resources to secret and extremely hazardous operations to free the countries of Europe, which we have now chosen not to be part of”. So return his thoughts, to the fact that he is “very, very, very frightened about where we are. There is something really nasty here: I remember saying about three years ago, there is a monster below the placid surface of British politics, and it has bloody well emerged.”

Figmentofmyimagination · 16/09/2016 14:59

I agree with everything Ashdown says.

I decided to join the libdems on the day of the vote.

Btw we should stop buying Dyson products - I'm guessing he has no plans to bring his manufacturing back from Eastern Europe. This should be his ratner moment for 14 million consumers.

The cordless dyson my DH bought recently is crap anyway - you can just about go along the hall and up the stairs before it runs out of charge. An innovation too far. I'm guessing our brexit-entrepreneur doesn't do much hoovering.

OlennasWimple · 16/09/2016 15:36

I agree with Ashdown too - one of those "prime ministers we should have had", IMO.

I've said before, though, about things like the passport cover: they are totemic, and every time we dismiss them as unimportant, we dismiss the views of those who feel they are important as they represent the loss of sovereignty to the EU that the Leave voters want to reverse. So let's change the passport covers (in a phased way, as we will need to do anyway to remove the EU wording), let people feel that they are reclaiming their sovereignty as a result. But let's not make it a distraction from the very real mess that still needs to be resolved.

SwedishEdith · 16/09/2016 18:01

Re the blue passports The One Awkward Fact About ‘Blue Passports’ Campaigners Have Forgotten

I do agree with a lot of tiggy's analysis about what would have happened if Remain had won. But, thanks to pp who've reminded me what May's interpretation about "the people clearly speaking" ect - more ammunition for a letter to my MP.

OlennasWimple · 16/09/2016 19:38

SwedishEdith - no reason why British passports and Convention [note - not "Conventional", as in the link] Travel Documents can't be the same colour?

James Dyson is turning into a really annoying tosser

RedToothBrush · 16/09/2016 21:51

Its been the UKIP conference this week. So what have they been up to apart from that dreadful Party Political Broadcast? And passport waving.

Well, typically Brits have no idea what to do when meeting our European friends. Is it two or three kisses? Well clearly Farage has been an MEP too long as he has forgotten that 'Real Brits' prefer to do no kisses.

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.
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RedToothBrush · 16/09/2016 21:58

And as if to prove my point about being 'serious, intellectual and dull' this is the Lib Dem Voice twitter feed tonight:

libdemvoice ‏@libdemvoice · 10m10 minutes ago

We’re setting a series of #ldconf challenges . Tomorrow’s is completely bonkers. Tonight, tweet us an eclipse photo
www.sciencealert.com/the-final-eclipse-for-2016-is-about-to-occur-here-s-how-to-watch

How's that going to make it into The Sun?! WE NEED SCANDAL. Not people actually trying to do a job. Whats the point in politicians who are interested in politics and not pints and personality?

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Peregrina · 16/09/2016 21:59

Oh yes, and two senior Kippers have defected to the Tories this week.
I'm not sure that this is a good thing, because it suggests to me that the Tories have been completely taken over by their right wing.

There was some comfort for me in George Osbourne speaking out this morning about his 'northern powerhouse' and unless I misunderstood, not wanting a 'hard Brexit'. TM will have p'd a lot of Tories off - Morgan and Gove being two others.

RedToothBrush · 16/09/2016 22:05

Tupton (North East Derbyshire) result:
LDEM: 38.3% (+38.3)
LAB: 34.7% (-32.4)
CON: 17.5% (-15.4)
UKIP: 8.9% (+8.9)
BPP: 0.7% (+0.7)
Liberal Democrat GAIN Tupton (North East Derbyshire) from Labour.

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects

Not saying this was what swung it, but the Labour councillor who resigned did so because he bit a teenager on the nose in a bar.

GENIUS.

Castle (Carlisle) result:
LAB: 46.5% (+9.2)
CON: 26.7% (+7.7)
UKIP: 12.5% (-10.4)
LDEM: 10.3% (-0.6)
GRN: 4.0% (-3.5)
Labour HOLD Castle (Carlisle).

Puckeridge (East Hertfordshire) result:
CON: 42.9% (-24.6)
UKIP: 18.9% (+18.9)
LDEM: 18.0% (+18.0)
LAB: 11.0% (-8.9)
GRN: 9.1% (-3.5)
Conservative HOLD Puckeridge (East Hertfordshire).

Bishop's Castle (Shropshire) result:
LDEM: 60.5% (-1.5)
CON: 30.2% (-0.5)
LAB: 6.7% (+6.7)
GRN: 2.6% (-4.7)
Liberal Democrat HOLD Bishop's Castle (Shropshire).

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Peregrina · 16/09/2016 22:08

So those results look as though the Tories are the more vulnerable to UKIP still.

mathanxiety · 17/09/2016 03:00

A priceless photo - it should win an award.

Thank you for the blog link, Figment. Some more:
blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/why-reports-of-a-brexit-boost-are-at-best-premature/

Unicornsarelovely · 17/09/2016 07:30

There was an interesting article in the ft recently on the economic consequences not looking as bad as Remain promised - it was basically saying that businesses are gambling on the outcome of Brexit either being single market access or a tax haven with unlimited cheap money supply.

The latter would have pretty significant consequences for many of the people in the country.

I'm boycotting Dyson - it helps that his products are crap- Hargreaves Landsdowne and wetherspoons. I doubt any of them will care, but I feel better for it.

TheForeignOffice · 17/09/2016 07:37

Interesting article in the telegraph this morning regarding a way to secure trade deals post brexit:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/16/bring-back-britannia-to-rule-the-waves-after-brexit/

So, all sorted then Confused

PattyPenguin · 17/09/2016 07:45

Ah, yes, James Dyson. His manufacturing plant went to Malaysia (not even Eastern Europe) over ten years ago.

Admittedly, he has opened a new R&D building, which "will house up to 450 engineers" and this "expansion is said to be part of an effort to create 3,000 new jobs by 2020", according to the media puff.

However, even if these jobs do materialise, as said previously, they'll be going to engineers from China and India, and even with a low-wage, low-tax regime, the UK still won't be able to compete on costs with Malaysia.

So anyone who thought Brexit meant "jobs for British people" isn't going to get much help from Dyson.

Figmentofmyimagination · 17/09/2016 07:55

theforeignoffice

Scary stuff - it should be a spoof. Rather terrifying that we are governed by people who are so stuck in a nostalgic past. Perhaps we should just go back to handing out coloured beads, cloth, muskets etc

merrymouse · 17/09/2016 08:14

She was a symbol of many things about this country we have now not got.

An empire? Confused

Although to be fair you could flog a lot of mugs and tea towels from that boat. A lot of port towns have weekly markets. You'd probably want to sell clothes pegs and tabards too.

Peregrina · 17/09/2016 08:19

Having a Britannia itself might not be such a bad idea. What I don't see from the report is any insistence that a new Britannia should be built in a British shipyard.

Oh, no, the usual guff about the Commonwealth - if that had been a viable option we wouldn't have gone into the EEC in the first place.

TheNorthRemembers · 17/09/2016 09:49

I am missing the good old embarrassing LibDem scandals, too. This generation clearly is far to serious and hardworking. What happened to the Brummie MP whose wife poisoned the lover's cat (according to tabloids)?

Mulling over whether to ruin my Saturday morning with reading the Telegraph articled linked.

One thing was missed out in our little what would have happened if Remain won game. Didn't Farage say we shouldn't accept the result if Remain wins with less than 10%? So there would be endless UKIP circus (that would be considered democratic - referring back to the LSE article).

taytopotato · 17/09/2016 09:54

BBC Radio 4 Brexit and Europe

merrymouse · 17/09/2016 10:06

If remain had won by any thing less than a landslide, Farage would still have been claiming the referendum as a success and would now be rallying the troops, buoyed up by Trump's success and other popular right wing movements.

We wouldn't be having a labour leadership election now.

Cameron and Osborne would be ploughing on, but very nervous of the UKIP vote and adjusting accordingly.

Gove and Johnson would be in remarkably similar positions.

OlennasWimple · 17/09/2016 12:21

TheNorth - the LD MP lost his seat in the last election. You can't mention him by name on MN, though, as he used to have some sort of klaxon system set up whereby if you mentioned him on a thread he'd pop up 10 mins later. He was eventually banned from MN... (He used to basically troll the adoption board, and late one night was posting confidential stuff about an individual case. When this was pointed out to him, along with the suggestion he had maybe had a bit to drink, he basically said "I might be drunk but I am also right" Shock).

I may or may not have done a little dance on hearing the election result...

whatwouldrondo · 17/09/2016 14:28

I visited the Brittannia and actually found it a deeply depressing experience.

Worst of all was the the segregation of living quarters of the sailors and servants, the officers and the Royal family but all underlined by the assumption that even if you slept in a hammock strung between the pipes of the working depths of the boat you were privileged because you might be lucky enough to get Princess Margaret slumming it to take a tot in your bar. I doubt very much if anyone will be up for living I those conditions to sail Boris and the Brexiteers around the world.

Worst of all were the state rooms which represented Britain to the world in the style of a 50s living room in a semi in Pinner with the odd spear to demonstrate affection for the natives of the empire. Is that the modern face of Britain as a forward looking trading nation then? Sad

ToxicLadybird · 17/09/2016 15:18

I just listened to that radio broadcast and have to confess to having a bit of a crush on Professor Dougan. He's always spot on in what he says and I think it's disgraceful how brexiters have tried to discredit him.

Here again he's right. Britain will not get a better deal out of the EU than in, thinking it will is a delusion. The negotiations are to minimise the damage.

StripeyMonkey1 · 17/09/2016 18:26

My Facebook feed has just cheered me up a little.

From The Guardian "George Osborne poses as centrist pro-European rival to Theresa May"

Osborne said May had made a “strong start” as prime minister but offered her only lukewarm support and signalled that he would fight her from the backbenches on grammar schools and any moves towards a hard Brexit deal.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/16/george-osborne-centrist-pro-european-rival-to-theresa-may?CMP=share_btn_link

Also the CBI is (rightly) horrified by Liam Fox, according to Robert Peston's blog:

If Liam Fox set out to alienate and upset business leaders, he probably could not be doing a better job of it.

First he characterised them and their outfits as fat and lazy. Now I’ve learned that he shocked a group of them, brought together by the CBI, when he said they should place more of their capital outside Britain – which seemed a dangerous and explosive thing to say when there are widespread concerns that Brexit will lead to a costly investment drought in the UK.

"Right now we need as much investment here as we can possibly get, to prevent a rise in unemployment - which is what many of us believe will be the painful reality of leaving the EU”, said the head of a huge UK company. “Few of us could really believe that he was telling us to invest more in other parts of the world. There was a real sense in the room of ‘this is bonkers’".

A senior City figure said: “We assumed he would be telling us to invest here. It was literally amazing that he said we should do precisely the opposite”.
Another said the atmosphere in the room was "icy" - and said Mr Fox left without the usual applause.

The explosive remarks were made last Monday by Fox, the cabinet minister charged with negotiating trade deals that can offset the anticipated negative impact on our exports of Brexit.

He was addressing the CBI President's Committee, and the justification for what he said was that Britain is not paying its way in the world – we are suffering from a record 7% current account deficit – in part because UK businesses and institutions are no longer earning as much as they did on their overseas investments, whereas foreign companies with operations here are taking more profits out of Britain than in the past.

Fox was extolling the virtues of Outward Direct Investment, or ODI, as opposed to Foreign Direct Investment here by overseas firms. If this becomes official government policy, it would represents a huge shift, since successive prime ministers have since Thatcher tried to persuade big multinationals – from Japan, the US and China, to name a few – to invest in Britain.

Most economists would probably agree with Mr Fox that over the long term it would be helpful to the UK if British companies increased their stock of productive capital abroad. But to do that on a large scale now could be seen as potentially triggering a balance-of-payments and sterling crisis, because it could be seen as a vote of little confidence in the prospects for the UK of our indigenous businesses.

On Theresa May’s recent trip to China for the G20, she was warned by America’s President Obama and premier Abe of Japan that US and Japanese companies operating in the UK could move their investments out of the UK in the absence of more clarity on our future trading relationship with the EU.