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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

OP posts:
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mathanxiety · 14/09/2016 23:32

I think the grammar school idea and Liam Fox's silly remarks have more in common than might be obvious.

The common element is that an elite could and should do more for Britain than it does - in the one case because the elite is fat and lazy and holding itself back, while in the case of grammars we see the belief that children who are capable of becoming an elite are being held back by the flabby mediocrities in their environment.

There is a concept of storm troopers somewhere in the murky depths, an impatience with mediocrity. This is not an egalitarian mindset.

Peregrina · 15/09/2016 00:04

One of the commentators in the Guardian (don't remember which one) did point out that there was some truth in the fat and lazy elite story. The whole emphasis until now had been on how the average worker wasn't being productive. Whereas the elite, whilst they might not have been out playing golf, were paying themselves about 130 times more than the average worker, and that they couldn't possibly be worth that much.

Grammar schools - TM, being a rather pedestrian character, is trying to hide the fact that Brexit, as yet means nothing. Corbyn is held to have bested her at PMQ's today, and for once the PLP backed him, and even the Tories couldn't raise too much enthusiasm.

Cameron - I wonder if his resignation was also due to the roasting he got about Libya from the Foreign Affairs Committee. Until now, he'd more or less got away with that. Now his 'legacy', already tarnished, looks as though it's completely crumbled to dust. Have any former PMs fallen from grace quite so quickly?

blinkowl · 15/09/2016 01:45

Thank you for this excellent thread (placemarking as I must get some sleep not stay up reading it!)

mathanxiety · 15/09/2016 02:04

ILs were asking me if I really believe that fruit-pickers go home for the winter. I said they are basically kept as slaves for next to no money. I doubt they can or would want to winter over here when they can go home to their families and a properly heated home.
[TheNorthRemembers]

Apropos of nothing really, but the potato pickers who used to go from northern parts of Ireland (particularly Donegal) in summer to pick potatoes in the Scottish Borders returned home afterwards even though their homes weren't heated or comfortable, because staying anywhere else would have meant paying rent and also because they missed their families and they were needed repairing fishing nets and thatches and doing some planting of their own cabbage and potato and oat crops in spring and early summer.

Peregrina · 15/09/2016 08:06

On the subject of agricultural workers: 25 years ago, I was auditing, and went to a farm to do the books. I remember the farmer saying then that the days of the roving gangs to do fruit picking were coming to an end.

This was when Communism was collapsing in Russia and E Europe, so no doubt the farmers saw that another source of labour was becoming available.

ToxicLadybird · 15/09/2016 08:12

When I was young (1980s) the fruit picking was done by the local teenagers. I used to get £1 an hour, cash in hand. I thought it was a fortune. If the farmer liked you you got to pick raspberries. If you annoyed him you had to do strawberries. And if you really pissed him off you spent the day picking gooseberries.

Corcory · 15/09/2016 08:19

Math - may family were farmers in the Scottish Borders and my mum remembered the Irish coming for the picking. They stayed in the bothy and certainly didn't go back home to any sense of luxury. This was rural Ireland pre EU. In the war they had Italian prisoners of war working on the farm.
Machines have taken over that work.

Peregrina · 15/09/2016 09:26

Nick Clegg talking about how Brexit is too much for the Tory brain. (IMO Fox and Davis appear not to have brains; Johnson does have one, but can't be bothered to engage it.)

Peregrina · 15/09/2016 11:45

The Independent's take on what was probably the same speech by Clegg.

And Mr Clegg suggested a “Government of national unity” would be needed in five years’ time – after the Conservative party was “broken on the rocks of this Brexit negotiation”.

I hope Clegg is right on this, but at the moment, I think it's wishful thinking on his behalf.

TheNorthRemembers · 15/09/2016 18:34

Thanks for telling me about Farage, but I respectfully declined to watch him. It is bad enough that Arron Banks is threatening Europe now link to politco.eu.

Peregrina It may have been Aditya Chakrabortty who sort of agreed with Liam Fox on laziness.

The LibDems are suddenly very busy. I like Clegg's idea. Tim Farron is certainly winking in my direction link to Guardian. There cannot be anyone else left in the Labour movement who still admires Tony for winning elections, but me.

Sorry if I did not explain myself properly. I did not mention proper heating as a sign of luxury for fruit pickers, but something that I really miss since living in England. I doubt my family and friends (the majority of them agricultural workers in Eastern Europe) would survive a winter in a house where the temperature never goes above 21-22 degrees Celsius. The winters are harsher and longer there, so the heating needs to be better.

Peregrina · 16/09/2016 08:41

My recollection is that John Smith did much of the spade work to make the Labour party look electable - he very much looked like a Prime Minister in waiting.

When Blair won the appearance was of tight discipline to make sure that they became electable. All this New Labour stuff, which they ditched after 2005. The first couple of terms were good IMO, and if the idiot hadn't gone to war in Iraq........Who knows?

Figmentofmyimagination · 16/09/2016 08:41

Thoughtful stuff - worth a read.

blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/in-a-divided-britain-the-pro-eu-movement-will-have-to-be-clear-about-what-it-wants/

Peregrina · 16/09/2016 09:27

He is largely talking about the recent protest Figment. I went on the Oxford march, and remarked at the time that we needed a snappy slogan, like the Leave Campaign had. 'Take Back Control', or now from Theresa May 'Brexit means Brexit' - essentially empty words, but fine as sound bites.

What I would like to see now is proper debates in Parliament, and decisions taken on Parliamentary votes. If those Tory MPs who voted Remain still feel the same then I would like them to vote for their convictions, and not just to shore up the Tory party.

The racists hijacked the last few weeks of the Referendum, so Brexit has now become all about curbing immigration, and if we have to leave the single market that is apparently fine.

But, we don't know what the Leave votes actually wanted - a significant number would have wanted more money for the NHS, and it's been made crystal clear that they won't get it. So Theresa May hasn't really got a clue as to what the will of the people is apart from the words of Cpl Jones "they don't like it up 'em." This isn't democracy and I wish Parliament would stop pretending that it is.

If Parliament after proper scrutiny decided that Brexit wasn't feasible, then I would like them to say so - and not give in to the racists.

twofingerstoGideon · 16/09/2016 11:01

Have you all seen that Jeremy Corbyn is doing a live web chat on MN next Monday?

twofingerstoGideon · 16/09/2016 11:03

But, we don't know what the Leave votes actually wanted - a significant number would have wanted more money for the NHS, and it's been made crystal clear that they won't get it. So Theresa May hasn't really got a clue as to what the will of the people is apart from the words of Cpl Jones "they don't like it up 'em." This isn't democracy and I wish Parliament would stop pretending that it is.
I totally agree with Peregrina. This is the most fundamental issue with Brexit. The people have spoken. But WTF did they say?

tiggytape · 16/09/2016 11:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Peregrina · 16/09/2016 11:50

Talking about what Remain voters wanted sidesteps the issue. The Leave side won, as they keep telling us, so now they need to say what they want, which so far, despite repeated requests they seem unable to do.

So if Remain had won, what would have happened? Cameron would have got the opt outs negotiated in February. We would still have Jonathan Hills with an important EU Finance portfolio. So what potentially detrimental changes to the UK would definitely have happened?

lalalonglegs · 16/09/2016 12:14

twofingers - that's brave, has he read the threads about his "leadership"? I don't think he will come away from that believing that he has a mandate to lead and the country is simply stuffed with Corbyn voters who are too timid to speak to pollsters but are ready to turn out for him Hmm.

twofingerstoGideon · 16/09/2016 12:16

Talking about what Remain voters wanted sidesteps the issue.
Quite.

prettybird · 16/09/2016 12:51

Theresa May must be an amazing mind reader, as she apparently know why the Leave voters voted the way that they did. She asserted confidently at PMQs that "there was a very clear message from the British people that we wanted to see an end to free movement..." on June 23rd.

I must have missed the invisible ink on the ballot paper as I don't recall answering that question Hmm

tiggytape · 16/09/2016 13:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheBathroomSink · 16/09/2016 13:43

Ukip have finally replaced Farage. The new leader is Diane James.

For now...

TheBathroomSink · 16/09/2016 13:45

Michael Crick ‏@MichaelLCrick 2m2 minutes ago
Diane James won Ukip leadership on votes of only a quarter of Ukip members, half of whom didn't vote

I suspect we will be seeing Ukip:The Leadership Campaign Pt 2 by Christmas. Perhaps Stephen Woolfe will have managed to do his paperwork by then.

TheBathroomSink · 16/09/2016 13:57

Farage's farewell (well, sort of) speech warned Theresa May that Brexit must mean "regaining control of fishing rights, getting out of the single market and returning to the old British passport."

Yes, because the colour of your passport cover is absolutely the third most important factor in the whole Brexit shitheap.

Unicornsarelovely · 16/09/2016 14:28

We'd probably have had more say on fishing rights if our MEP with responsibility for the fishing portfolio had ever actually attended a meeting.

I note even he doesn't seem to have an end to free movement in that list! I suppose it is a given if we don't want to be in the single market, but interesting that he hasn't mentioned it.

Also I don't know if this has already been linked, but the Brexit vote is a wonderful opportunity to increase immigration from India and China according to James Dyson www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/sep/14/sir-james-dyson-upbeat-about-brexit-as-company-invests-in-expansion