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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
TheNorthRemembers · 17/09/2016 18:27

Olenna Very interesting, thank you. Never knew that.

whatwouldrondo "Is that the modern face of Britain as a forward looking trading nation then?" Exactly my feeling. The answer is clearly yes.

Mistigri · 17/09/2016 19:16

Have you all seen this?

www.facebook.com/pestonitv/posts/1694289837562421

It's hard to believe that anyone this incompetent could have risen to such high office. He makes boris johnson look like a statesman.

And there were people on here who were cheerleading for this complete bozo to become PM!!!

Mistigri · 17/09/2016 19:17

Ah that'll teach me to RTFT, stripey posted it above, sorry

StripeyMonkey1 · 17/09/2016 19:49

You managed to link it Mistigirl. I need to work on my techno- capabilities.

Surely Liam Fox cannot last much longer? He is proving to be a greater liability than Boris which is obviously quite an achievement!

TheForeignOffice · 17/09/2016 20:03

So bad it was worth stating twice Wink. Fox's appointment epitomizes both the painfully short memory span of the general public, and May's appalling judgement or deliberate sabotage relating to all things Brexit. It pains me to even read his name. We are doomed with people of his calibre in such critical functions.

Stripey in contrast, your Guardian link cheered me up no end. I now have visions of a rejuvenated George - fresh from an intensive program of reflective psychotherapy to dissect "how did my career go so bad so fast?" - bouncing back to fight against May's thinly disguised authoritarianism and rescue us all from this madness. To lightly plagiarise on of the article's comments, GO now appears to be acting as the Leader of the Opposition Grin

StripeyMonkey1 · 17/09/2016 21:01

Haha - yes, not what I was expecting either TheForeignOffice. It's amazing how quickly transformations can occur in politics!

Having said that, whilst George Osborne's new found love of liberalism might be a little, ahem, convenient, at least he is looking like he might lead the more moderate strand of the Conservative party and have some impact. I do believe that his desire for both a soft Brexit and for education policy to focus on Academies rather than Grammar Schools are genuine. That at least, in a Conservative Party with such a small majority, could make him a much more effective leader of the (unofficial) Opposition than Corbyn.

TheBathroomSink · 17/09/2016 22:39

Is Osborne really a leader of anything? He's as much of a weasel as Gove is, and it's very recent history that he disappeared off the face of the earth for the entire weekend following the referendum, leaving everyone grasping at straws, and wondering what the hell was going to happen.

Does he have enough (any?) allies to be effective as an Opposition? I would see any kind of agreement between him and Gove as very opportunistic, and probably doomed to fall apart in a short space of time.

mathanxiety · 18/09/2016 07:33

Anyone seeking an alliance with Gove at this point in history would need to have his or her head examined, surely.

TheForeignOffice · 18/09/2016 08:27

Absolutely. I can't see GO ever seeking a tight alliance with Gove on anything (unless I missed something which is quite possible!), and I'd suggest Gove is well and truly Head Weasel although George clearly has those tendencies too...

...but GO seems to be distancing himself very deliberately from his pre-ref life to create a clear new position himself as champion of the masses, which given around 65% of the voting population did not vote to Leave, and there is no effective opposition, nor leadership, feels like a very logical strategy for a career relaunch to me. I hope he means it and delivers. We shall see soon enough, I am sure.

HyacinthFuckit · 18/09/2016 08:49

I was coming here to post that swedishedith. As expected. Of course the other EU countries aren't going to roll over easily over freedom of movement. Why on earth would they? Nothing in it for them!

TheForeignOffice · 18/09/2016 09:56

Quite an interesting piece in this morning's Guardian:

It is not ‘time to move on’ over Brexit: it’s time to fight

www.theguardian.com/business/2016/sep/17/brexit-not-time-to-move-on-time-to-fight-eu-referendum?

OlennasWimple · 18/09/2016 13:23

Remember (as a newspaper commentator observed the other day) Osborne could sit on the back benches for nearly 20 years, then make a leadership bid and still be a younger PM than May - so he doesn't need to be too hasty in anything

Figmentofmyimagination · 18/09/2016 14:29

Anna soubry is exactly right that campaign groups like Leave means Leave - led by the likes of ghastly ideologue Dominic raab - are the biggest threat our economy faces.

Kaija · 18/09/2016 17:34

Yes.

Has everyone put their question to Jeremy Corbyn? He needs to be pressed on Brexit and the single market quite carefully I think, and it hasn't come up much amongst the questions so far.

Bearbehind · 18/09/2016 17:58

What has Corbyn actually said on Brexit since the referendum?

I haven't seen a thing from him.

Kaija · 18/09/2016 18:23

Quite. And what he has said has been ambivalent to say the least.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/07/jeremy-corbyn-says-uk-should-reject-key-aspects-of-single-market-after-brexit

It's not looking good.

twofingerstoGideon · 18/09/2016 18:30

I have posted on the JC webchat thread. I'm eligible to vote in the leadership election and am holding back for another day or two until I see his response. If he continues not to say anything meaningful about Brexit I will not be voting for him and will consider joining another party.

twofingerstoGideon · 18/09/2016 18:31

What has Corbyn actually said on Brexit since the referendum?
The square root of fuck all, basically. Really not good enough, is it?

Bearbehind · 18/09/2016 18:58

I genuinely don't understand anyone who votes for Corbyn as leader.

His politics seem to be stuck in the 70s/80s along with his dress sense

Corcory · 18/09/2016 19:47

Think I will ask him some thing fairly specific and see what he says if anything or if he just waffles as usual.

Peregrina · 18/09/2016 20:27

Did Corbyn call the Referendum? Put the blame squarely where it lies - on the spineless quitter Cameron. I don't vote Labour but am fed up with seeing Corbyn blamed.

And why hasn't Farage STFU? What was he doing on the Andrew Marr show?

Bearbehind · 18/09/2016 20:39

I haven't heard anyone blaming Corbyn, but, given an opportunity like Brexit, it isn't unreasonable to think the leader of the opposition might just mention it rather than harping back to a bygone era and trying to make a point about train overcrowding.

That is genuinely the only thing I have seen him do since 23rd June.

There's no point in blaming anyone for anything now- we've just got to get on with it but, if I were a Labour supporter, I'd at least like my Leader to acknowledge it was happening.

Kaija · 18/09/2016 20:43

It's not about blaming Corbyn. The point is that he is the Opposition, and the person right now best placed to provide a counterbalance to those on the hard/far right who are pressurising May for a catastrophically hard Brexit. But my fear is that on this issue he is actually aligned with with right because of his ideological objections to the single market. Which leaves us depending on the SNP, Ken Clarke and the last scraps of the lib dems to save us.

StripeyMonkey1 · 18/09/2016 20:52

Hold on, it looks like Corbyn has finally managed to say something useful on the subject of the EU.

From the Express (sorry):

"I'd ignore the public vote if elected, says Corbyn

JEREMY CORBYN has made it clear he would ignore the democratic will of British voters and allow free movement to continue with the EU if he became prime minister. ..." www.express.co.uk

If he can also be bothered to raise this minor point with May at PMQs this week, that would be good.