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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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ManonLescaut · 13/09/2016 18:24

S'ok I put a curse on him when I saw him watching the Wimbledon final, while my stomach was such a tight knot I couldn't concentrate.

My hoodoo is strong. Wink

SwedishEdith · 13/09/2016 18:34

Don't know if this has been discussed yet or if it's any different to what we already know.

access to EU market without free movement - Irish PM tells Britain

Yes, Cameron's pride will be damaged but he's still inured from any real damage - no job loss, certainly no financial loss - possible quite the opposite (or maybe not compared to what he could have earned as "good" PM). So depressing. Feels like there's nowhere to escape (and I'm not sure the US feels any better at the moment). Japan? They need immigrants. Smile

SwedishEdith · 13/09/2016 18:41

Gisela Stuart is a loser in the boundary changes it seems. Wonder if she'll just become a councillor?

prettybird · 13/09/2016 18:43

Another article reminding us that there is no such thing as everlasting cake, with the removal of freedom of movement - and also pointing out that no one in charge knows what they are doing Hmm.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/13/zero-chance-eu-citizens-keep-same-rights-post-brexit-expert?CMP=fb_gu

lalalonglegs · 13/09/2016 19:38

Apologies, Davis not Davies.

Unicornsarelovely · 13/09/2016 22:12

I thought you might appreciate this:

www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/boris-demands-fantasy-version-of-eu-2012120551919

ToxicLadybird · 13/09/2016 22:29

I cried reading that article prettybird. I feel so betrayed, by my country and by my family who all voted for it. I have no doubt whatsoever that the government doesn't give a shit about protecting us and will 'negotiate away' our rights in a heartbeat. I'm terrified and am having to take pills to sleep at night post brexit referendum.

mathanxiety · 14/09/2016 06:55

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/uk-no-access-to-the-eu-market-if-it-ends-free-movement-enda-kenny-irish-prime-minister-a7239686.html

For some reason I couldn't open your link, SwedishEdith, so I am posting the Independent article on the topic.

Enda Kenny isn't the sharpest tool in the shed but he most definitely is a cute hoor* and if I were Davis/Johnson/Fox/May I would be paying attention.

*Pays very close attention to the way the wind is blowing.

Motheroffourdragons · 14/09/2016 07:45

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

SapphireStrange · 14/09/2016 10:55

I feel so betrayed, by my country and by my family who all voted for it. I have no doubt whatsoever that the government doesn't give a shit about protecting us and will 'negotiate away' our rights in a heartbeat

Toxic, I feel very much the same (except I have just one family member I suspect of voting out, and a friend – the friend I'm finding harder to deal with, TBH).

I increasingly think the Tories want the UK to be a low-tax, low-wage rich person's playground, and screw the rest of us.

ToxicLadybird · 14/09/2016 12:09

There's no suspecting with family. They've been blatantly gloating and slapping each other on the back with glee, while saying that I only have myself to blame for any consequences as I chose to be a traitor and abandon my country.

DoinItFine · 14/09/2016 12:17

I increasingly think the Tories want the UK to be a low-tax, low-wage rich person's playground, and screw the rest of us.

It's the only oitcome that makes sense of policies pursued by the Tories for the past 40 years.

SapphireStrange · 14/09/2016 12:25

Toxic, I'm sorry, that's so difficult and miserable.

I haven't spoken to my family member. My friend have skirted round it and he posted on FB that David Davis's speech to Parliament (the one where people shouted 'Waffle' at him) was 'brilliant' Hmm and should satisfy even Remain doom-mongers. Hmm Hmm

Currently it's an elephant in the room. It's awkward, but if we got into a full-on argument/discussion about it the friendship might not survive it.

Anyway, sorry to derail.

twofingerstoGideon · 14/09/2016 12:40

I increasingly think the Tories want the UK to be a low-tax, low-wage rich person's playground, and screw the rest of us.

I also suspect this will be the eventual outcome.

Peregrina · 14/09/2016 12:56

Sadly even my family are at loggerheads, with DH being a reluctant Remainer, and the rest of us being committed Remainers. Cue arguments for the last two weekends running.

So now, we are just talking trivia to each other.

whatwouldrondo · 14/09/2016 16:44

ToxicI am sorry, that sounds on the verge of bullying especially if it is affecting your sleep and you are not given a voice to argue against the obvious failure of logic, as well as lack of respect.

I have a problem with my parents who swallowed all the rubbish that was campaigned on and hark back with rose tinted specs to the last century but it has just made me realise how vulnerable they are. They sit and digest what is in the screen and in the Times and that is it. They keep coming out with all the rhetoric but then when you highlight the deeper picture they clam up. At first I argued, then I tried not mentioning it, now I just half heartedly argue when it gets ridiculous, but they are so out of touch with the world. It's not just Brexit eg when an item comes on about junior doctors they shout at the screen that the greedy buggers just want more money, so you point out that my peers worked inhumane and dangerous long hours and everyone saw the obvious need to stop it, and that now the government wants to go back to that with the next generation, that all my peers who have children who are in training as doctors are appalled at what is expected of them now, never mind the new contract, the spin they have put on mortality figures , that nobody In their right mind would be going into medicine for the money at the moment, and that their own family member has left the UK because of the state of the NHS etc etc etc and they calm down until the next time. They talk about how we will make up for eu trade with trade with America, so you ask about the TTIP and of course they have never heard of it..... I have even caught them commenting on all those greedy lazy overpaid people in London when when it is in the personal they talk about the stress my family is under and how it isn't worth the money ....ahem..... It just underlines why the country should not be voting on complex issues like this......

TheNorthRemembers · 14/09/2016 18:04

It seems we all experience it at a very personal level. I decided to discuss subject with ILs, so it would not "fester". Our latest conversation was about how British fruit and veg are superior and it is just scaremongering that noone will want to pick it. ILs were asking me if I really believe that fruit-pickers go home for the winter. I said they are basically kept as slaves for next to no money. I doubt they can or would want to winter over here when they can go home to their families and a properly heated home. I also try to point out that for a lot of EU people England is just a place to work, not paradise. I personally would have never moved here unless I met the most dashing / kindest, etc. (English) man in the world.
We may be able to get to them one issue at a time. Who am I kidding?! Reckoning would only ever come if May was brave enough to include pensions in the all-out austerity.

MirabelleTree · 14/09/2016 19:07

I've just turned in the TV and found Farage half way through a party political broadcast, my dinner nearly came back up - I thought he had buggered off as he'd had enough of death threats?

SwedishEdith · 14/09/2016 19:13

Poor you Toxic - sounds difficult. ILS were Leave - we've only actually seen them a few times since. Not mentioned at all...YET!

I also find it very hard to understand why the Tory party...want to muddy the water with stuff like introducing grammar schools again when we have so much more to be thinking about.

That's why. It's a complete distraction. As a pp has already said, loads of threads about grammar schools v any mention of the EU gets a "Ewww, there's topic for that nasty/dull/complicated stuff". And mnhq comply and dutifully move it to the, largely, hidden topic.

twofingerstoGideon · 14/09/2016 20:03

Meanwhile, poor old Nigel throws his toys out of the pram.
link
What did he think would happen?
Twat.

HesterThrale · 14/09/2016 20:47

www.google.co.uk/amp/mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/14/business/media/brexit-media-newspaper-europe-britain.amp.html?client=safari

Well I suppose something successful has arisen out of Brexit.
And it's actually worth reading.

TheNorthRemembers · 14/09/2016 20:50

What? Pardon me. Has Farage not f*ed off yet? Why?

MirabelleTree · 14/09/2016 21:08

No he hasn't, he was spouting stuff like 'beware , there are many in the establishment who say this referendum is purely advisory ' and he ends up waving a passport. It's on iplayer if anyone wants to raise their blood pressure.

PattyPenguin · 14/09/2016 21:40

This is quite funny, if anyone needs cheering up.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/14/mays-pmqs-disaster-gives-cameron-parting-gift-of-schadenfreude

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