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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

OP posts:
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Peregrina · 13/09/2016 11:54

Perhaps Cameron knows that with good Comprehensives in his Constituency, he's going to get his ear bent by parents who don't want selection, or would have to stump up for private education. As he said himself, parents don't want their children sorted into sheep and goats at 10 or 11. I know that he denied that his resignation was to do with the Grammar School issue.

The pity of it is, is that he had a huge majority - it would take the most enormous heave for anyone to overturn it, but perhaps if a strong Remain candidate could be found?? Or if a large dent was put in his majority, that would send a message.

Peregrina · 13/09/2016 12:01

He previously said he'd stay until there was a GE;

He had said that he would stay on after a GE. Back in the spring he made comments about standing down, and had to clarify that it was standing down as PM, and not as an MP. I always thought that he would go at the next election.

whatwouldrondo · 13/09/2016 12:07

Or maybe as the popular press are saying from what I have seen on news stands, he is off to cash in, without having to declare his earnings and interests, and have them scrutinised and criticised as an MP. The gossip from the usual speculation "source" is that he has been dining with the Blairs and that a move to New York so he can cash in, and she can launch a fashion label, is on the cards.

I am sure it would be very hard to sit there in Parliament through all the Brexit crap, knowing as well as any of us the implications, and live with the knowledge you were the cause of it. He hasn't put up much of a defence on that one except to say that he kept his promise of a referendum instead of just procrastinating. If the choice was that or a gilded life elsewhere or just a chance to work for something he believes in it isn't really surprising.

I just learnt that two of my Professors both highly regarded and frequently quoted in the Press, Radio etc., EU citizens but have been here for years, have accepted the golden handshake offered by US universities. They have been underpaid and stretched but stayed here because they were proud to be part of a world class British institution, contributing to the understanding of important world issues but Brexit was the final push. I can't really see either of them fitting in to a US university environment so they must have really felt pushed.

The departure of our brightest is in full swing (and for all his failings Cameron was bright, I am beginning to wonder about May. She is now reminding me of the blue stockings at my grammar school who got their heads down and worked earnestly to get into Oxford encouraged by their middle class parents but never had anything much clever or original to say, let alone amusing, and kept well away from, in fact grassed up, the normal acts of teenage rebellion and challenges to authority and orthodoxy. Her grammar school policy strikes me as pining for the fjiords)

Peregrina · 13/09/2016 12:19

that a move to New York so he can cash in, and she can launch a fashion label, is on the cards.

He can pull his children out of their current state schools and send them to Boarding schools, with the two older ones at least. Marlborough for Nancy and a prep which prepares for Eton for his son. How very convenient. Not that I am cynical.

PattyPenguin · 13/09/2016 12:21

The interpretation I've heard from someone who knows a fair bit about the internal workings of the Tory party... DC is seeing the party move towards the right, away from the direction he wanted to take it in. He feels he can't criticise from the back benches as he will just be accused of being bitter over Brexit.

If he's not going to be listened to, presumably he doesn't see any point in being an MP.

ManonLescaut · 13/09/2016 13:05

It would be difficult to sit on a hard backbench and look at the mess you created on a daily basis. He wasn't intending to serve a full second term anyway.

I doubt the Camerons are people who take public humiliation well. It was kind of inevitable they would leave the country.

Peregrina · 13/09/2016 13:16

Especially self-inflicted public humiliation.

prettybird · 13/09/2016 13:19

In terms of grammar schools, someone on here suggested - and it struck a cord with me - that it was a deliberate strategy to propose something controversial, that lots of people have strong view about (in England at least who cares about Scotland Wink) in order to take the spotlight off the lack of Brexit progress.

Is May that Machiavellian? Not sure - but it does seem strange timing, given , as others have said, the slim majority and the lack of supper even within her own party, for grammar schools and secondary moderns.

tiggytape · 13/09/2016 13:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Peregrina · 13/09/2016 13:32

I suspect she might like to think she is as clever as Machiavelli, but IMO she is a rather unimaginative plodder. Not that being a plodder is always bad - tortoises and hares spring to mind, but I think she needs to be sharp witted in the Commons and personally, I don't think we have seen much of that so far.

Think of someone like Denis Skinner, a.k.a. 'the beast of Bolsover' - he can come back quick as a flash with some cutting remarks.

Back to Cameron - how many weeks ago was it that he was saying to Corbyn 'Go, resign'? Oops.

Kaija · 13/09/2016 13:50

Am sure the grammar schools thing has been thrown in as a distraction from increasingly nightmarish and undemocratic Brexit manoeuvres (did everyone see that, predictably enough, negotiations are not going to be open to parliament contrary to what David Davis was saying a few weeks ago?).

You can see it working even on here - the grammar school thread looks a lot busier than any of the Brexit ones now.

OlennasWimple · 13/09/2016 13:51

TM might not be Machiavellian, but her advisors sure as hell are

SapphireStrange · 13/09/2016 14:05

I think it's possible that the dead-cat strategy might be in play. But I can't help but nod in agreement at ron's assessment of May as a hard worker but not clever or original. And my DP keeps saying that maybe she just really really believes in the grammar school thing and isn't bright enough to realise what a mistake it might be in terms of divisiveness.

Which leaves me with only two real possibilities –the dead-cat strategy has been put into play by advisers cleverer than her, as suggested by Olennas, or May is just following her own bizarre agenda, to possible disaster.

PattyPenguin · 13/09/2016 14:38

We seem to have been landed with a bunch of politicians who aren't even much good at being politicians.

Cameron
Gove
B. Johnson
Fox
Davis
May
Corbyn

Lord help us!

Unicornsarelovely · 13/09/2016 14:46

The House of Lords has said that Parliament should review the article 50 notice before it is served. The Tory chairman Ian Lang said it would be unconstitutional not to allow parliament to review. Article in the guardian now but I can't link from my phone I'm afraid.

Peregrina · 13/09/2016 14:50

Add Leasdom to the list of deadbeats. (So quickly forgotten.)

whatwouldrondo · 13/09/2016 14:52

I will give her that she has had the sense to engage the brighter and more original thinkers to write her put downs in parliament, and then delivers them with the glee of one who was once on the receiving end.....

lalalonglegs · 13/09/2016 14:56

I (kind of) sympathised with Cameron for leaving Downing St after the referendum result - it would have been madness/illogical to have stayed on - but it will stick in my craw if he goes to the States and abandons the country he has done more than anyone to fuck up Angry. It would not even be shitting on your own doorstep, it'd be shitting on your doorstep and then climbing out of the window and leaving your neighbour to clean up the mess.

And young Elwen's education was looking like it was going to be in the private sector even before the referendum was announced (oh those innocent times).

Kaija · 13/09/2016 16:09

The fact that he took the summer holidays and resigned a week after he came back rather suggests he is taking the piss...

Where are we on the 2015 election expenses fraud stuff? Is there any more news imminent? I don't suppose he would much fancy hanging around for that.

Kaija · 13/09/2016 16:11

The fact that he took the summer holidays and resigned a week after he came back rather suggests he is taking the piss...

Where are we on the 2015 election expenses fraud stuff? Is there any more news imminent? I don't suppose he would much fancy hanging around for that.

Kaija · 13/09/2016 16:20

There's a nice grim sort of irony in the fact that Andrea "as a mother" Leadsom's first task in her new role was to murder a lot of badgers.

ManonLescaut · 13/09/2016 17:48

Clegg needs to be added to the list.

I'm not sure why you'd write a book revealing how little you understand about how politics works and how much nastier the Tories were than you thought.

TheBathroomSink · 13/09/2016 18:01

Where are we on the 2015 election expenses fraud stuff?

Going nowhere fast. So far it looks like everyone was doing the same thing with charging expenses centrally, which is why no-one is making a very big deal out of it, although the police are still investigating.

On an unrelated note, David Davis' seat is another one which will be abolished if the boundary reforms happen.

SwedishEdith · 13/09/2016 18:03

She is now reminding me of the blue stockings at my grammar school who got their heads down and worked earnestly to get into Oxford encouraged by their middle class parents but never had anything much clever or original to say, let alone amusing, and kept well away from, in fact grassed up, the normal acts of teenage rebellion and challenges to authority and orthodoxy

I think that's pretty much May's assessment of herself, tbh. God, it's sickening that the Cameron's can escape from the mess they've made as simply as that.

Add Gisela Stuart to that list of deadbeat MPs (I know she's not in power - seems to make it worse somehow).

Peregrina · 13/09/2016 18:17

Gisela Stuart only had a majority of 2700, but it was previously Tory. I don't know how the boundary changes will affect it. I don't see much comfort there, unless Labour deselects her for a Remain candidate.

It is sickening that Cameron can escape from the mess, but his place in history is assured as a great failure, and that probably troubles him more.