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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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MirabelleTree · 11/09/2016 16:54

I have been lurking on recent threads but thought i'd share this tweet about the EU flag wavers as it made me really Grin Apologies if someone has already posted it.

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.
SwedishEdith · 11/09/2016 17:03

Grin. Watching Leavers frothing on Twitter last night was highly amusing.

'Britons never, never, never shall be slaves.' so wave only the flags we tell you to wave. (I actually hate Last Night of the Proms - find the Union Jack waving excruciating).

tiggytape · 11/09/2016 17:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheNorthRemembers · 11/09/2016 18:10

Hungary poster campaign pokes fun at migrant referendum

A poster war has broken out in Hungary, within weeks of a referendum on European Commission proposals to redistribute asylum seekers more evenly across the EU.

Since the 2 October referendum was announced in February, public spaces and the media have been inundated with the government's messages, such as:
• Did you know that the Paris terror attacks were carried out by immigrants?
• Did you know that nearly one million immigrants want to come to Europe from Libya alone?
• Did you know that since the start of the immigration crisis, harassment of women has increased in Europe?

The question facing voters on 2 October:
"Do you want the European Union to be able to mandate the obligatory resettlement of non-Hungarian citizens into Hungary even without the approval of the National Assembly?"

In response, the satirical Two-Tailed Dog Party has raised €100,000 from 4,000 people, through crowdfunding, for their own rival posters and billboards. These mock the government's messages, in both style and content.
There are 27 versions, which include:
• Did you know there's a war in Syria?
• Did you know? If something is often repeated, it rings true.
If something is often repeated, it rings true.
If something is often repeated, it rings true.
If something is often repeated, it rings true.
• Did you know a tree might fall on your head?
• Did you know that in the 16th Century in Somogy county, 42 people were attacked by bears?
• Did you know one million Hungarians want to emigrate to Europe?
• Did you know Brussels is a city?
• Did you know? The perpetrators in most corruption cases are politicians.
• Did you know an average Hungarian sees more UFOs in their lifetime than immigrants?
• Did you know? During the Olympics, the biggest danger to Hungarian participants came from foreign competitors.

"We can't really do anything about all the people who spend their days hating migrants, people who have probably seen more aliens from other planets in their lives than immigrants," party leader Gergely Kovacs told the BBC.
"What we can do is appeal to the millions in Hungary who are upset by the government campaign. We want them to know they are not alone."
BBC link

I may be losing my mind, but I would vote for the Two-Tailed Dog Party.

Last year they had a poster campaign along the lines of “Come to work in Hungary, we’ve got jobs in London.”, when there was another spate of government hate posters on “feckless immigrants”.

Peregrina · 11/09/2016 18:57

Maybe we could take a leaf out of the Two-Tailed dog party and crowd fund a campaign to expose Leaves Lies - like the £350 million for the NHS, and make it clear that the Referendum vote wasn't valid.

It needs as snappy slogan though.

tiggytape · 11/09/2016 19:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheElementsSong · 11/09/2016 19:28

Mirabelle "charged with reason" that is excellent! Grin

TheNorthRemembers · 11/09/2016 20:41

I didn't get that at first. [slaps head] Thanks TheElementsSong

Peregrina · 12/09/2016 11:53

The Sun is now getting its knickers in a twist over the possible introduction of visas. (I won't bother to link to the Scum), and their readers are not happy. I am sorely tempted to post on their website to say 'Suck it up'.

whatwouldrondo · 12/09/2016 12:19

Oh dear Boris's Change Britain Facebook page isn't going down too well of it's aim was to engage the young....... www.facebook.com/ChangeBritain/

PattyPenguin · 12/09/2016 13:36

I actually did look at the comments. The sarky one from "Max Stone" is rather amusing - "Takes the pi*s. I voted brexit to put control on them coming here, not us going there! Least we've still got the £350m more a week for the NHS we were promised."

PattyPenguin · 12/09/2016 13:37

Sorry, should have specified that I looked at the comments under the Scum story.

TheNorthRemembers · 12/09/2016 15:32

So Cameron resigns. Again.

ManonLescaut · 12/09/2016 17:46

He can chillax for good now.

TheBathroomSink · 12/09/2016 18:15

Will be interesting to see who is parachuted into his seat, especially with the Boundary Review details coming out today - apparently George Osborne's seat is on the chopping block, as is Jeremy Corbyn's.

SwedishEdith · 12/09/2016 18:38

His seat voted Remain. Might be an interesting test of whether tories vote for anyone as long as they're blue?

TheNorthRemembers · 12/09/2016 18:47

Headline from a European news portal "Man who is responsible for Brexit resigns". There is your legacy Cameron. He can walk away from it all, but we can't! Sorry for shouting.

HesterThrale · 12/09/2016 21:03

Just looked at the comments on Boris' Change Britain Facebook page. People are not holding back. Vast majority are scathing of Boris and Brexit. There are a lot of bitter, angry people out there. The comments would be funny if the situation weren't so important and desperate.

m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=181093068968387&id=167658653645162

TheNorthRemembers · 12/09/2016 22:16

Does Boris even know he is in government, do you think? He no longer needs to piss into the tent any more, he could just pipe up at cabinet meetings. Or is May even more withering than the commenters on Facebook?

TheBathroomSink · 12/09/2016 22:55

Or is May even more withering than the commenters on Facebook?

Oh, I can absolutely see her being way more scathing than any Facebook commenter. She has that look about her.

Peregrina · 12/09/2016 23:11

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/12/david-camerons-petulant-resignation-as-an-mp-shows-why-he-leaves/

A most unsympathetic commentary on David Cameron.

SwedishEdith · 12/09/2016 23:27

Hmm, pretty accurate. It highlights, I think, the problems of enormous inherited wealth - it makes it difficult for people to find any real purpose. They end up just playing with jobs and ideas. See Boris and Osborne (he'll step down next, especially if his constituency disappears). So they create tension in other ways - a rivalry with each other here, a little national social and economic crisis there.

Kaija · 13/09/2016 09:07

This'll cheer you all up. Sort of.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/09/what-earth-does-brexit-means-brexit-actually-mean

TheNorthRemembers · 13/09/2016 09:48

I like Will Self. The Telegraph, however, took their time in identifying Cameron's weaknesses.

I also know what Brexit means now [looking smug]. Link to LRB twitter Brecht sit means Brecht sit. Sorry if it was posted earlier.

SapphireStrange · 13/09/2016 11:23

Thanks Red for the ongoing hard work.

I'm just back from hols and have loads of work to catch up on, but no doubt will be back later.

Before I go: I'm intrigued at Cameron's decision to stand down. Why now? Partly I'm sure he just can't face the idea of his constituents demanding opinions/answers/gossip on Brexit from him. But partly, too, I think he's quite perspicacious and I wonder if he sees trouble ahead (I mean more than just the existing clusterfuck of irreconcilable demands and pressures) and has decided to get the hell out before it really kicks off.

May is not looking secure at the moment –having to constantly run behind her 'senior' ministers on Brexit to clear up their mess; Johnson running off to join a rival circus Brexit pressure group; her bewildering determination to push through the grammar schools thing in the face of overwhelming proof against her and resistance from her own party...

All in the context of the tiny majority she holds.

I think Cameron has seen writing on walls/shit hitting fans. He previously said he'd stay until there was a GE; well, he may have just meant 'until everything gets thrown up in the air and messed up'.