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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

OP posts:
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merrymouse · 11/09/2016 09:43

All singing off the same hymn sheet then...

I think there will be increasing demand from business to just get on with things, whatever that means - an increasing sense that any deal is better than being in limbo.

HesterThrale · 11/09/2016 09:53

Finally heard from my (Tory Remainer) MP in reply to my question about whether the Govt had the honesty to tell the public that actually Brexit would be damaging. In it, there was a whiff of 'well, you voted for it, now you're going to get what you wanted'.

Also claimed the referendum was fair. Ha! Are ANY of these Leave promises likely to be kept?

www.commongrounduk.com/commentary/cut-keep-list-top-19-brexiteer-promises/

prettybird · 11/09/2016 09:57

As an aside, my dad - a doctor (who also graduated from Glasgow Uni) - thinks Liam Fox is an odious man who is a disgrace to the profession and the Hippocratic Oath.

merrymouse · 11/09/2016 09:58

hester, I particularly like number 8:

  1. We’ll get brand new trade deals all over the world

“We would immediately be able to start negotiating new trade deals… which could enter into force immediately after the UK leaves the EU” – Chris Grayling

LOL

PattyPenguin · 11/09/2016 10:06

Very interesting two page spread in the Observer today about the UK population's political beliefs. Based on an opinion poll, like all these things, but does seem to chime with what we've been seeing.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/10/britains-political-tribes-hinder-labour-chances-of-winning-coalition

HesterThrale · 11/09/2016 10:26

Merry, yes! And no. 9 - 'Britain will have access to the single market after we vote leave.' - Vote Leave.

Not exactly what Boris is saying today in the Daily Mail, is it? (Link previously posted).

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3783586/amp/Boris-defies-Theresa-backs-hard-Brexit-campaign-Foreign-secretary-join-high-profile-Brexiteers-demand-UK-pulls-single-market.html?client=safari

Kaija · 11/09/2016 10:32

Shouldn't he be sticking to his day job?

howabout · 11/09/2016 11:20

Really interesting editorialisation of the polling stats in that Observer article. As a loony lefty I read the stats as saying TM has a problem because only 30% of the population see themselves as right wing or centre right but she is viewed as left of this by only 16% with a lot of undecided. I guess it is because I am interpreting the grey area as being as right as someone would go whereas the article assumes that most would accept positions to the right of them but would not accept anything to the left?

RedToothBrush · 11/09/2016 11:32

Interesting idea, Red, about 'associate EU' status. But could a total whole reorganisation of the EU come in time to stop us from severing ourselves completely? TM is going to be pressurised to act quickly by elements in her party.
I think it could go either way. It also could provide a way, back into the EU in twenty years...

It is certainly possible to see how he envisages it squaring the circle in many Brexit dilemmas. However, looking at it from the point of view of the other 27 countries who have not decided to exit, I am wondering how acceptable it would be to them?

^Obviously we'll have to see how elections in those countries pan out next year but, as things stand, voters in those countries seem to be moving away from what Guy Verhofstadt favours and towards greater control over their own borders and greater freedoms to make rules that suit them (the rise of AfD in Germany for example on an anti-immigration mandate and growing support for similar parties elsewhere for example).
Even those who say they are happy with the EU as it stands haven't been terribly vocal in expressing any active desire for even closer ties and restrictions within the EU. It could all change, but a full integration solution with a tier two membership will not be popular with those who want to be in tier 1 but either as it stands now or in a reformed (looser) state.^
It depends on where they stand. Like likes of Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and the Czech Republic were very supportive of the UK in terms of getting opt outs. They feel particularly under pressure of the idea of an EU super state which they categorically do not want. Associate membership could be attractive.

BUT they want freedom of movement.

I think Verhofstadt perhaps does understate the amount of nationalism there is within Europe at the moment and that forcing a more aggressive EU agenda is perhaps going to drive more exits. However on the other hand, perhaps this is also an acknowledgement that this actually NEEDS to happen and will happen regardless.

Italy is likely to be on the verge of doing a Brexit after its referendum I suspect. This is why the Brexit Timetable is just so crucial. And is also part of May's thinking to delay a50, simply because in the next 12 months there is likely to be quite a few more political earthquakes and actually we would be better waiting it out to see how the dust settles before commencing negiogations as it may well end up favouring the idea of associate membership - with bonus unicorns riding into town to save us.

I honestly think that we would be stupid to act too quickly for this reason.

OP posts:
tiggytape · 11/09/2016 11:37

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tiggytape · 11/09/2016 11:46

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merrymouse · 11/09/2016 11:49

How are things going for this 'Don't Know' man/woman that I hear so much about? My money's on him/her. Seems to be very influential.

tiggytape · 11/09/2016 11:54

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twofingerstoGideon · 11/09/2016 12:21

Unfortunately, I think many people don't even KNOW what they policies are of the party they vote for. This video is very telling!

So... people support socialist policies when you tell them what they are, but would definitely never vote for a socialist party. You couldn't make it up.

Peregrina · 11/09/2016 12:32

So... people support socialist policies when you tell them what they are, but would definitely never vote for a socialist party. You couldn't make it up.

I think you could make it up actually. This reminds me of a story my mother told about the first election at the end of the war (elections had been suspended for 'the duration'). A friend asked her how she had voted, and she replied, Conservative. The friend was astonished because it didn't chime with the opinions she had heard my mother express. But Mum simply wasn't all that clued up politically at the time and voted the same way as her parents. Maggie Thatcher later cured her of voting Tory.

Peregrina · 11/09/2016 12:49

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/11/amber-rudd-britons-might-need-to-pay-for-permission-to-visit-eu

Dear oh dear. Is this what Leavers voted for? To have their holidays in Spain made more expensive?

twofingerstoGideon · 11/09/2016 13:12

Amber Rudd said it was a "given" people voted Leave to reduce immigration.

Speaking on the Andrew Marr Show, she reiterated the prime minister's dismissal of a points-based system to control EU migration championed by Brexit campaigners in the build-up to the referendum, saying it "simply doesn't work".

link

I wonder how the Leavers who claimed their vote was 'nothing to do' with immigration feel about this? I look forward to the ones who claim to fall into this category making their voices heard.

Mistigri · 11/09/2016 13:34

Re shy voters ...

I think people generally understand and will agree in public that certain policies are morally or economically "right" but in the privacy of the voting booth, they may choose to vote in their perceived personal interest rather than in what they believe be the general interest.

Grammar schools are a good example of this. It's a policy with very little moral basis or evidence base, but the Tories know that middle class voters may well vote for it, out of personal interest. Many people who send their children to grammar school would be happy to concur that selection at 11 is bad education policy from the point of view of, for eg, social mobility - but they may still vote for and use grammar schools. People are not generally keen to admit that they have voted for bad policies for personal gain.

The shy vote can work both ways of course, depending on the prevailing political mood. There are probably shy voters of both political persuasions in the US right now.

PattyPenguin · 11/09/2016 13:54

On the subject of grammar schools, there are people who are in favour of grammar schools, believing that their DC are clever enough to get into one. Some of them get a shock when their children don't actually get in. When I was in primary school, there were several private schools in our area, despite it being rural, where parents who could afford it sent those of their offspring who failed the 11-plus, rather than have them to go a secondary mod.

All schools became comprehensive in our county the year I went to senior school. After a couple of years, once parents had seen that the comprehensive system worked, all these private schools closed down due to lack of demand.

The private school sector is looking forward to the return of the situation prevalent in my childhood. www.theguardian.com/education/2016/sep/10/grammar-schools-middle-class-boost-private-education

whatwouldrondo · 11/09/2016 14:23

Well as Tiggy knows even better than I do Grammar Schools, and private schools for that matter, do very well out of parental angst about the shortage of places in good state schools, indeed any state schools. Each of the local outstanding comprehensives get over a thousand first preference applications for their approximately 200 places and even the state schools that are in special measures are full. The two grammar schools locally get over 2000 applicants and over 30% of pupils are in private education, often with families making considerable sacrifices to pay for it. There is a massive tutoring industry which is in the midst of an arms race, currently the panic in the playgrounds sets in in Year 3. It takes a lot of money and commitment to tutor a child from Year 3, particularly for VR and NVR tests that have no other educational value. The grammar schools recently added English and Maths to the 11+ because if they were going to get the products of heavy tutoring they might as well be tutored in something that would give them a head start with an aspect of their education, though it rather puts to bed the principle that they are searching for raw ability.

I am sure expansion of grammar schools will go down well with parents of under 11s as well as the elderly and nostalgic but less well with the parents of over 11 who have witnessed the collective madness that descends in Year 3/4/5/6 and the fallout. I know few who would actually endorse that level of tutoring as a good thing and most would laugh at the idea of it aiding social mobility. Ironically the result could be said to be aiding some sort of mobility in the sense that a cultural willingness to tutor has resulted in the schools having 70% BME pupils compared with around 50% in the surrounding state schools, but of course 1% FSM compared with a 10% local average.

whatwouldrondo · 11/09/2016 14:23

I am of course referring to the situation in London

howabout · 11/09/2016 14:26

That is exactly what I was getting at Misti. I think the prevailing mood is so far to the right that the "shy" barometer may be reversed. I prefer my politicians to be more public spirited and less self interested than me, and thus probably more left wing, which is why I am surprised that the Observer article seems to imply the opposite for everyone else.

Given the narrative works very well for SK and even TB and it is NC, NM, CU and co doing the interpreting I suspect there may be a lot of confirmation bias at play.

I agree most people don't necessarily know what they mean by right and left and what the underlying policy narrative is. It is no surprise that 47% of people think JC is a left wing loony when that is what they are constantly being told by 172 PLP members.

whatwouldrondo · 11/09/2016 15:58

The quiet giving in to the Catholic Education Service's refusal to play ball with the Free School programme because of the requirement for 50% of places to be inclusive will be met with a similar mix of welcoming and cynicism in this area. The planning and commitment to access state faith schools around here starts even earlier than Year 3 especially for Catholic Schools who require baptism by six months as well as church going and contributions to Parish life (the number of parents willing to support church life mysteriously all tend to have children under 11) The end result is that as with Grammar Schools the local Catholic School have 1% FSM compared with 10% in the community school next door. With half of local primaries being faith schools that are either exclusive or almost exclusive and the catchments of community schools down to 400m in some cases more faith schools will only make it harder for non religious parents, some of whom drive past the six schools they named as preferences to get to the school they were allocated, local schools. Angry

Peregrina · 11/09/2016 16:17

Boris defies Theresa May as he backs 'hard Brexit' campaign:

Boris's main aim is to become PM. Theresa May's Government is not doing quite as well as the Media would like us to think, despite the lack of Opposition. So......it's my guess that this is his ploy to be on the other side when she comes unstuck, so that he can have a try for the job.

SwedishEdith · 11/09/2016 16:47

Nick Cohen is spot on here Why would the EU appease the deluded Brexiters?

"Or as Boris Johnson, a politician who has never made the mistake of believing what he says, told his credulous supporters: “This is a great country and great economy and I think people know we can do brilliantly if we take back control.”

An honest version of Johnson (if you can imagine such a creature) would have gone to the Nissan car workers in Sunderland and said words to the effect of: we may be able to deliver the immigration controls you want if we leave the single market but there is a risk that you will lose your jobs if we do.

The cynicism of Johnson, Gove and Farage’s failure to lay out the difficult decisions shocked the naive. But these men were charlatans fighting a campaign they were prepared to win without honour."

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