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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
Kaija · 10/09/2016 13:44

'One picture is worth a thousand words.'
Liam Fox selling Britain on his postBrexit trip to India.
#Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.
merrymouse · 10/09/2016 13:56

I think that picture could be subtitled

"okaaaaay....."

mathanxiety · 10/09/2016 17:44

Manon, that's a very good question.
The Fixed Term Parliament Act has meant that the question of referenda has been brought front and centre, replacing elections as a means of ascertaining the will of the people. It has created a hybrid American model of political life, albeit without the two term limit that has done so much to warp American political history since it was introduced.

mathanxiety · 10/09/2016 18:32

Pastygothboy - 'senile nostalgics' hits the nail on the head.

I think we can trace Fox's words back to the language of social Darwinism or even to the murky waters of the philosophy behind eugenics, which is a second cousin of the speech of ultra nationalists everywhere since the age of nationalism dawned.

I very much doubt if Fox is aware of the concepts he is hearkening back to, because he doesn't strike me as very bright or intellectually curious.

Unicorns - The joy of 'creative destruction' is very much part of the mental world these eejits seem to inhabit.

mathanxiety · 10/09/2016 18:35

Farage clearly already heaping blame on Verhofstadt and Barnier for the very poor deal the UK will get (and would get no matter who was at the helm on the EU side).

This is an attempt to deflect criticism from him and his fellow Leavers for their campaign (and the clamour since 1973 to leave Europe).

Peregrina · 10/09/2016 18:59

He was giving an unscripted speak to a group of conservatives at a dinner in parliament. A Times journalist who was there recorded it.

The silly chump is old enough to have learnt to guard his tongue.
The end result is that a perfectly valid message of a need to increase our exports was lost. Although it would be good if he had some constructive suggestions as to how this could be done.

twofingerstoGideon · 10/09/2016 20:24

Crown Prosecution Service to review claims that Farage incited racial hatred.
link here

mathanxiety · 10/09/2016 21:33

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-08/u-k-brexit-goals-completely-unrealistic-top-czech-envoy-says

A salutary reminder that there will be two parties to the upcoming negotiations. Much of the talking so far has had an echo chamber quality to it.

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-08/hammond-warns-eu-it-will-hurt-itself-by-attacking-city-of-london

I think Hammond is bluffing wrt New York.

RedToothBrush · 10/09/2016 22:45

I think that picture could be subtitled

They are all thinking exactly the same as all of us. You are a dickhead. Stop waffling and just tell us all what Brexit means Brexit actually means.

James Chalmers ‏@ProfChalmers
Projected Brexiter workload for next decade: 5% trying to make Brexit work; 95% trying to make sure they don't get the blame for failure.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ex-education-secretary-may-s-school-plans-are-weird-xplfxf3rw?shareToken=5be19df05253f8ab8ac8eadaaf6a13de
Nicky Morgan, who was of course sacked by May as Education Secretary, in the Times today talking about the Grammar Schools plan and how she isn't on board.

Now there is obviously probably an element of sour grapes here, but the Tories have a slim majority in the Commons. There are only a few rebels needed, to turn this into a major issue for May. If she is defeated over the issue, it raises questions over whether she really has the confidence of her own party.

May would be exceptionally foolish for the debate to show up in the Commons prior to a50. If it does, then things could get very interesting.

I've been doing a bit of reading of Guy Verhofstadt's twitter feed.

A couple of weeks ago, before his appointment to Chief Brexit Negotiatior he posted this, together with a video.
^Guy VerhofstadtVerified account ‏@GuyVerhofstadt Aug 28
Part 6/6 of my plan. Let’s end the Europe à la carte & build a real Union that works and in which everybody invests.^
I've typed up the transcript of what he said:

What we call the European Union is in fact not a real union. It is a loose confederation of nations based on the unanimous consent of each of the member states. If one of them blocks, nothing happens. Moreover every member state can pick and choose its policies: the euro, Europol, Schengen. Its like it would be possible in the United States that California uses another currency to the dollar or that Florida refuses to participate in the FBI. Would that work? Certainly not. Well in Europe neither. An endless list of opt ins, opt outs, rebates or other exceptions has created an enormous confusion and complexity. A Europe ‘a la carte’. And the result is an ineffective Union, now longer capable to find solutions for the challenges we face and the dramatic consequence of it is that more and more citizens turn their back on it. The Brexit offer in my opinion, an ideal moment to point an end to this. Britain has always been the champion of this ‘a la carte’. It doesn’t participate in the Euro, in Schengen and in a lot of other policies. On top of that, it benefited from a huge rebate in the budget. As British has now decide to leave the union. Well, it’s time to get rid of the bureaucratic and complex system. My proposal is to radically simply, to reduce the dozens of opt ins, opt outs and exceptions in one clear choice: membership or an associated status. Membership means full membership, an obligation to participate in all the policies, getting all the benefits and rights. And for those who prefer an ‘associate status’. This will mainly limit the cooperation to the internal market. Less obligations, but also less rights.

I think it could be taken in a number of ways, with different people picking up on different elements more than others.

The thing that jumps out at me from that is the idea of the associate status.

He doesn't say whether Britain could be an associate member or not post Brexit. However it does open the possibility of 'leaving the EU' but also 'staying in the EU'. Both at the same time.

Of course, this is the solution that Farage really wouldn't like, as I'm sure it could be perceived as staying in by the back door. And also making the EU more like the EU that he really dislikes: the idea of a European Super State. Of course, to Farage this really would be an insult to Britain.

To me, it also is something of a revealing of the EU's hand.

A two tier system would allow others to 'Brexit' if they so choose, without the EU loosing face in concessions to the UK. It is in effective a get out for them too.

It also shows to me, that in terms of planning, the EU are already way ahead of the UK in knowing what 'Brexit' should look like. They actually have a plan.

Given the comments of May, Davies and Fox, I can't help but wonder whether there is also an acceptance by the government that this is what we will eventually end up regardless of personal opinions prior to the vote, because of the dawning realisation of the reality of how difficult Brexit will be legally with the 'Associate Member' Option as the alternative to the 'Unilateral Continuity' and this is what the real goal is. Of course the public will need to be prepared for this, and of course we couldn't be told that this was, in effect, a plan lead by Verhofstadt. And if terms can not be agreed then we would be looking at a much harder option than this.

If this is an option, then there are also a few things here; a50 could potentially be triggered and we put into a position as effectively an associate member status in a time frame that was more smaller than a normal trade deal.

Also this could solve some of the issue resulting from NI and Scotland.

There may even be a couple of unicorns thrown in for good measure if we are lucky. But until they show up, I don't think we should get too excited.

Certainly the EU seem to be ahead of us in knowing what they want. And what they are prepared to offer.

It would be the political fudge. It would probably require an EU treaty to bypass a lot of the legal problems we have: hence why a50 could be used quite quickly.

I appreciate this is speculation, but given Verhofstadt's appointment I think the idea now has a certain amount of weight. Its leaving the EU, but it is still EU Lite at the same time. If done right, it could though this is a bit could please many Brexiteers (though not all) and be acceptable to many Remainers (though not all) whilst removing many of the obstacles we would have with the unilateral continuity option.

I personally think, that this will turn out to be Option A as mentioned in my OP in the long run. We shall see. Time will tell.

ON A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT NOTE. Last Night of the Proms. Lots of EU Flags. And Arron Banks spending a fortune on Union Jacks in order to make sure the EU Flags didn't out number them. Apparently.

OP posts:
Peregrina · 10/09/2016 22:58

[Hammond] also said any effort to shift clearing operations away from the U.K. capital could benefit New York more than Europe.

He may be bluffing, but helping New York isn't helping London. Yet, the whole world is supposed to be rushing to help us out because 'We are open for business'.

Kaija · 10/09/2016 23:10

Remember that rather modest plan to have some EU flags waving at the last night of the proms?

Arron Banks responded by buying up 10,000 union jacks, and sending a message to 1,000,000 people in the leave.eu database to enlist their help distributing them.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/09/millionaire-funds-10000-union-flags-for-last-night-of-the-proms/

I notice on his timeline is a suggestion from someone that he missed an opportunity to start a new post-UKIP party. His response was "I've had the summer off". Expect lots of wooing of traditional labour voters to follow.

tiggytape · 10/09/2016 23:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Peregrina · 10/09/2016 23:25

Red Interesting ideas re an Associate EU. Do you have any thoughts as to other nations which might prefer associate status? I am thinking in terms of existing members, not potential new members.

It sounds more like the original 6 EEC members and the larger number of EFTA members that we used to have prior to accession to the EEC.

Some Brexiters should be happy, because that is similar to what they voted on in 1975. Some of the hard line Brexiters will never be happy, because their aim was to kick out all the Muslims, or African asylum seekers, which isn't going to happen anyway.

Most people really won't care all that much as long as they can go through the quick EU queue at passport control, and don't have to fork out for visas for their Spanish holiday.

Kaija · 10/09/2016 23:36

Sorry red - I missed that you had already posted about Arron banks and the flags.

Yes the associate status idea does sounds very interesting and the closest suggestion so far to something that might work.

Just need more shiny distractions to keep everyone's minds off it being staying in by he back door. This week grammar schools, next week fox hunting...

Peregrina · 10/09/2016 23:53

£350 million pledge abadoned

I thought it had been abandoned on 24th June.
Liam Fox comes in for a telling off.

IAmNotTheMessiah · 10/09/2016 23:55

The Associate status idea is quite interesting. From our point of view it could work to make any Brexit less than completely catastrophic, but on the other hand Mr Verhofstadt may come to rue the idea, as I suspect there would be quite a lot of resistance to the super-state option, even from the likes of Germany and France. In the end it could finish up with 27 associates! Which would be more or less back to the original Common Market idea...

IAmNotTheMessiah · 10/09/2016 23:59

Peregrina - I like this link from the comments

What does Boris owe

mathanxiety · 11/09/2016 00:15

It's a two pronged proposal, and I can't see either prong being popular with anyone.

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/sep/10/hospitals-on-brink-of-collapse-say-health-chiefs

The non-availability of the £350m couldn't have come at a worse time.

pastygothboy · 11/09/2016 01:46

mathanxiety - Fox is surely who Yeats was thinking of when he wrote "the worst are filled with passionate intensity".

We should all be re-reading this at the moment.

mathanxiety · 11/09/2016 06:18

Forces set in motion that now have their own momentum and are beyond control - so much foreboding in that poem.

merrymouse · 11/09/2016 07:45

Publicity stunt, or was Aaron Banks really worried about a lack of Union Jacks at the Last Night of the Proms? Doesn't sound as though he has much confidence in popular support for the referendum result.

missmoon · 11/09/2016 08:41

I thought this article by Nick Cohen in the Guardian was very good: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/10/why-would-eu-appease-deluded-brexiters?CMP=twt_gu

On why the government needs to start being honest about the tradeoffs involved in different forms of Brexit.

PattyPenguin · 11/09/2016 09:03

The Grauniad story Peregrina refers to above says, "Instead, Change Britain said on its “Brexit Means Brexit” page that any savings made as a result of no longer having to pay into the EU budget (assuming the UK leaves the single market) should be spent on guaranteeing “continued funding for farming, science, universities and poorer regions of the UK”. The website was taken down, although cached versions of its pages were still accessible through search engines."

Which is interesting in itself. I've tried to find a cached version but so far have failed.

HesterThrale · 11/09/2016 09:30

AB is a very silly little man.

Interesting idea, Red, about 'associate EU' status. But could a total whole reorganisation of the EU come in time to stop us from severing ourselves completely? TM is going to be pressurised to act quickly by elements in her party.