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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
Peregrina · 09/09/2016 21:43

What depressing news, NorthRemembers. I wonder if a visa scheme will be practical considering that substantially more of us travel to the Continent & Scandinavia, than Americans travel to Europe.

It would be a nice money spinner for the EU, though.

Peregrina · 09/09/2016 21:48

Steve Peers, a professor of EU law at the University of Essex, said he could envisage British holidaymakers having to apply online through a future EU electronic visa waiver scheme before travelling to Spain or France, for example.

“It’s going to annoy a lot of people,” he said. “We can ask for full free movement, but any arrangement is going to have to be reciprocal, so you have to ask what Nigel Farage and the others will accept. We have no idea what the rules will be.”

So the 16 million who voted Remain have to dance to Nigel Farage's tune! A man who isn't even able to get himself elected to Parliament. God help us!

RedToothBrush · 09/09/2016 21:59

Good to see you are all going strong. I haven't switched on a computer or looked at the internet for two days. This is something I never do (including on holiday). I just needed a time out.

politicalscrapbook.net/2016/09/britons-time-to-celebreate-today-is-our-brexit-ministers-big-bang-trade-deal-day/
Things you say that come back to haunt you. Brexit Related Example 453773753321 by David Davies. If this does not make you worried, go see your doctor for signs of a pulse.

ciaranmcgonagle.com/
Blog by financial services lawyer. There are a number of Brexit related posts.

www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2016/09/05/news/brexit-threatens-good-friday-agreement-court-hears-682074/
Piece about the NI case in court. It doesn't say a great deal but there are a couple of points of interest.
Although British prime minister Theresa May has indicated Article 50 will not be triggered before the end of this year, Mr Justice Maguire was told proceedings should be "expedited".

Tony McGleenan QC, for the British government, said: "There's a desire to conclude any litigation by the end of 2016."

I would draw the conclusion from that, that if there is any serious litigation still ongoing by the end of the year, it could get difficult for the government.

waitingfortax.com/2016/09/08/brexit-the-case-for-a-parliamentary-vote/
Speaking of which, this is a must read about the a50 must be put before parliament and not acted via the Royal Prerogative.

Few of us would baulk at the suggestion that the courts have an important role to play in regulating the relationship between the citizen and the Executive. Or in circumscribing when the Royal Prerogative can and cannot be used. Baulkers, if there are any, should read the words of Lord Oliver in Rayner (Mincing Lane) v DTI [1990] 2 AC 418, 462:

as a matter of the constitutional law of the United Kingdom… the Royal Prerogative, whilst it embraces the making of treaties, does not extend to altering the law or conferring rights upon individuals or depriving individuals of rights which they enjoy in domestic law without the intervention of Parliament.

I find this VERY interesting. I'm not a lawyer but I know there are a few on the thread. Is this important or set a precedent that we should take note of?

twitter.com/dfatirl/status/773944973448343552
The Irish Foreign Ministry have released a press release about their priorities post-Brexit after a meeting with David Davies. Spot the glaring omission. GFA.

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects

Northern Ireland // Border poll voting intention:
Stay in the UK: 63%
Join the Republic: 22%
(via Ipsos Mori / 16 Aug - 02 Sep)

Why many will be pissed by the appointment of Guy Verhofstadt.
Tweet from 2013
Guy Verhofstadt ‏@GuyVerhofstadt · 15 Jan 2013
There can be no question about an individual renegotiation by a single Member State. Not by Britain. Not by any another MS.

kluwertaxblog.com/2016/09/08/brexit-vats-happening/
Brexit and VAT. 3300 pages of law will need to be rewritten. Someone has a fun couple of years ahead of them at work.

OP posts:
pastygothboy · 10/09/2016 01:41

Leave the EU
Bring back grammar schools

What next, eh?

Return of capital punishment?
Bring back National Service?
Return of the Light Programme and "Big-Hearted Arthur Askey"?

We are in the grip of senile nostalgics

merrymouse · 10/09/2016 07:25

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/09/fat-and-lazy-britain-is-ill-prepared-to-secure-future-outside-eu-says-fox

Confused ConfusedConfused

I find these remarks confusing for many reasons, the main ones being that

  1. the trade secretary seems to be saying British business people are rubbish - thanks for the tip off Liam - better buy German maybe?

  2. he seems to think people start businesses not to make money, but as some kind of moral duty to Queen and country

Kaija · 10/09/2016 07:41

What a fucker.

I think he is saying business is going to be harder post-Brexit (thanks for that) and is trying to deflect the blame.

Bit like knocking someone's stick out of their hand and berating them for falling over.

Unicornsarelovely · 10/09/2016 08:03

Liam fox's article is part of s pattern of similar from the Tory brexiteers who are into creative destruction. People have grown too fat and comfortable and need a shock to make them work. That if course is easy to say when you're at the top of the pile.

It echoes sentiments I have heard from leavers round here (wealthy rural area in the south), these are usually people with btl income, final salary pensions etc who blame young people today god not having those things because they don't have the necessary wartime spirit. I have found it does not help to point out that they were born in 1948.

Kaija · 10/09/2016 08:17

Urgh.

Peregrina · 10/09/2016 08:23

Now, now, be fair to Dr Fox:

Fox, a former GP and staunch Eurosceptic, suggested business executives would rather be playing golf on a Friday afternoon than negotiating export deals.

He's lambasting his own kind, and not just the plebs, (who would rather be on benefits than work for zero hours contracts.) BTW, how does he know they are out playing golf on a Friday? Perhaps he has first hand experience?

TheNorthRemembers · 10/09/2016 09:17

Red We need your threads for sanity.

Off to read all the depressing links.

PattyPenguin · 10/09/2016 09:37

I agree with Kaija. Fox is getting his excuses in early. He now realises that the economy is going to tank and is trying to start a story that it's British businesses to blame, not Brexit.

The problem with this for the Tories is that it's an attack on one of its major bases, both in terms of votes and in terms of funding.

I'll wager Theresa May has already had words with Dr. Fox.

DoinItFine · 10/09/2016 09:39

Well if "talking Britain down" is good enough for Liam Fox, presumably there will be no more complaints when Remainers do it.

What a bizarre starement for a Trade secretary to make.

At least he is admitting that Brexit is going to make everybody's lives harder.

Peregrina · 10/09/2016 09:55

I wonder if he is trying to get himself sacked, before he has to admit that he is totally incompetent?Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. Attacking academics is OK because they live in ivory towers and not the real world, but your golf playing chums?

Unicornsarelovely · 10/09/2016 10:34

According to the BBC, the comments that businesses were fat and lazy were made at a private dinner and do not reflect the departments views.

This does seem to beg the question why he wrote an article saying exactly the same.

Bearbehind · 10/09/2016 10:39

I don't think it's coincidence that the only things Fox and Davies have publicly said about Brexit are kamikaze.

Its looking like it's all a big game that they no longer want to play.

shame the stakes are so high.

SwedishEdith · 10/09/2016 10:48

I think he's just a gobshite high on power. How can it be remotely acceptable that that man can ever have returned to mainstream politics. And, yet, there he is, right at the heart of things. He's puffed up on hubris. The only hope is that he's so vain he may bring about his own downfall.

Can we just ignore the Govt and create our own, alternative state?

Corcory · 10/09/2016 10:50

Unicorns - He didn't write an article. He was giving an unscripted speak to a group of conservatives at a dinner in parliament. A Times journalist who was there recorded it.
I think he was more than a bit silly to call some British Business leaders lazy and more interested in going out to play golf on a Friday afternoon.
The point he was trying to make was that we only export 11% of our GDP and that we could do a lot better.

whatwouldrondo · 10/09/2016 11:02

It was always going to be anyone but the Brexiteers fault when they failed to deliver Britain a "glorious future". I assumed it was going to be all the fault of the Germans, didn't see it falling at the feet of golf clubs Confused

What Lliam Fox is very short of is constructive suggestions about the UK's strategy for competing with the emerging markets in global markets if we walk away from the strategy implemented by the Tory Goddess Thatcher of being a service based economy within the EU. I certainly don't agree with Thatcher and her brutal and divisive approach to implementation but her underlying thinking economically, that this was the most effective strategy in terms of our ability to compete in the emerging global economy was sound, and has been validated.

Mistigri · 10/09/2016 11:13

The point he was trying to make was that we only export 11% of our GDP and that we could do a lot better.

Isn't this largely to do with government policy failures over the years? It's going to require an enormous boost to manufacturing to replace the loss of service export revenues (assuming no passporting).

The UK economy is very service dependent. FTAs typically exclude much of the service sector.

Basically, Fox is a moron.

merrymouse · 10/09/2016 11:29

The point he was trying to make was that we only export 11% of our GDP and that we could do a lot better.

But is golf the reason we aren't doing better? Could there be some kind of tax on golf clubs?Grin

Listening to FT politics podcast just now, the opinion was that he doesn't have much to do as nobody can get into the nitty gritty of signing contracts until Brexit has been sorted out.

Unicornsarelovely · 10/09/2016 11:55

Lack of infrastructure (airports and working train lines) to help businesses to expand or an education system which prepares people for all types of work are presumably the fault of those businesses which knock off early on a Friday and are clearly nothing to do with the government at all.

Unicornsarelovely · 10/09/2016 11:56

If there was a tax on golf clubs there could be a lot more housing in Surrey.

IAmNotTheMessiah · 10/09/2016 11:59

Pointed.

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.
Mistigri · 10/09/2016 12:55

he doesn't have much to do

His job is to (i)keep the Express and the Telegraph quiet and then (ii) to act as one of the fall guys when it all goes tits up. He's very busy with (i) right now Grin

whatwouldrondo · 10/09/2016 13:09

Corcory The UK is the third largest exporter in the G7, behind only Canada and Germany, and ahead of the US. It is the fifth largest exporter in the world but 78% of the economy is accounted for by services, we are the biggest exporter of financial services in the G7 by some margin, accounting for 29% of financial service exports. I assume your 11% figure is goods since financial service exports alone are 13 % of GDP. More importantly it is the one sector of the economy that is in surplus apart from gas turbines, and the sector most at risk from Brexit. For the rest eg cars we import more than we export. Over 50% of our export markets are in Europe, again at risk. We were doing too badly in relation to the rest of the western world, though Asia is doing better.

Exactly how do you propose we compete with Asian economies to increase our exports of goods, especially if the other sectors of the economy contract as a result of the Brexit negotiations? Aside from doing what we do now, adding value via science and technology and branding (both sources of competitive advantage that Asian economies are slowly eroding by the way, quite apart from the hit they are taking from Brexit - British universities have already fallen down the rankings as a result of pre Brexit uncertainty and sentiment, Cambridge out of the top 3 for the first time). Honestly UK exporters are not playing golf on Fridays, they are working hard to research and develop new competitive products, and to market them effectively (never been near a golf club on a Friday throughout my working life) but will now face a disadvantage from the loss of free movement and the perception that we no longer welcome those who bring us their skills......

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