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Brexit

Westministenders. Forget Boris. This is where Brexit starts to get real.

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2016 13:26

There is no plan.

Or is there?

Certainly Douglas Carswell seems to think there is, and that its being ignored by people.

Robert Peston, has apparently been reliably told that May’s Brexit means Brexit equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

It would mean we could not be a member of the EU’s single market or the EEA like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss type deal because of the requirements of free movement of people and contributions to the EU. This means we are headed to ‘Hard Brexit’ and a model closer to the yet to be concluded Canadian free trade deal.

He and others then went on to dismiss the idea based on other legalities, the time taken to get agreement and the fact it doesn’t include services.
The way in which trade deals are current done with the EU is that they are agreed by majority consensus unless they don’t fall within the current parameters of negotiation scope, which including services would do, and would therefore require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining members.

Not including services such as banking, lawyers and architects would leave us close to bust.

Certainly though, it looks like we are headed towards 'Hard Brexit' rather than a softer option. I wonder how many people voted for a hard exit? It is undeniably a minority...

The solution?
Well possibly the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ which apparently the Tory Right are getting all excited about as its being seriously considered.

It would effectively see us trigger a50 and then declare we were keeping everything the same. Minus paying into Brussels and Free Movement of People and EU law. It is actually currently the only option that fits with Peston’s report of May’s Three Pillars.

It would assume that we could assume our WTO status and this would be accepted without dispute by all 164 WTO members. Or at least with minimum renegotiations needed.

We would then declare our current trade agreements would stay the same in a ‘take it or leave it situation’ and taking the belief that law is on our side, meaning no one is likely to challenge it leaving us to just carry on trading as we are.

The problem with this is plan is not law but politics.

The plan would make us terribly popular as a nation (both with the EU and the rest of the WTO members) and ultimately could lead to the failure of the plan or bankrupt/destroy us in the process.

And Brussels insiders have already dismissed the plan, insisting it is illegal and would take it to court. The WTO yesterday also said the same thing when May said that the UK would become a 'free trader'.

There’s the rub. It might well be the case that the law is on our side in all respects. The truth is the EU really have no option but to challenge it. To not do so, would be crazy in terms of the continuation of the EU. What would be the point in making contributions to it, if you could get all the benefits without the apparent drawbacks? Surely it would at some point inevitably lead to the end of the EU?

What would happen in the meantime is the big question. We could get stuck in a battle where all trade to the EU was disrupted by a legal dispute. It would cause massive uncertainty for all concerned. And for how long.

What else could the rest of the EU do? They are entering the land of Shit Creek just as much as us.

Of course the threat of doing this, probably is our Big Bargaining Chip. Threaten the very existence of the EU and test the rest of Europe’s real commitment to it. The trouble is that of course the EU can’t be seen to give us a deal that good willingly so maybe it is the only option that the
UK has to achieve May’s pillars.

Interestingly this previously mentioned article directly refers to Unilateral Continuity as option b.

www.politico.eu/article/tory-dream-of-a-short-sharp-brexit-theresa-may-conservative/

I do think this back up the idea that this is the leverage idea to give us a hand to bargain with as in theory it means that the EU would be forced into a scenario where they either have to:

  1. Accept the deal of unilateral continuity or propose one just as favourable to the UK which potentially might threaten the EU and undermines their own national interest (most likely reached through an EU Treaty of some description to avoid a50 and the hazards it raises for all parties) or
  2. Allow the UK to go ahead with unilateral continuity and then challenge it in the courts – or force us to challenge a trade blockade - in the hope it would destroy the UK but might save the EU, however they might lose anyway getting burned in the process themselves by undermining their own national interest, and the EU might still be at risk of collapse.

It is a high stakes gamble. All or nothing. Quite literally. It’s very much British Imperialism returned. Irony of ironies.

The trouble is, looking at a50 we don’t have much room to do much else but grab the gun in the hands of the EU and wrestle them for it. Who, of the two of us, will end up being the death of when they get shot?

I note here, it means that we possibly don’t need as many negotiators as suggested nor possibly senior civil servants. It would mean 2 years or slightly longer is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course, we wouldn’t be THAT CRAZY? So say all the people who said we wouldn’t be that crazy to vote for Brexit in the first place forgetting we now live in the land of the crazy.

The only ray of light? The EU commission, France and Germany realise that creating a legal precedent is a worse option than making the case that the UK is somehow a ‘special case’ and they should therefore give us all our sweets and unicorns afterall. Thus proving that all us Remainers really were wrong all along.

The really big sticking point as to why it won’t work? Northern Ireland (and to a lesser extent Scotland), the fact we need Free Movement of People whether we want to admit it or not (for NI and certain industries like agriculture) and the practicalities of registering all current EU citizens so we can keep the new unwanted ones out.

It always comes back to these 3 points doesn’t it?

Nor does it take into account the issue of acquired rights and the legal position of British citizens abroad. Strangely enough, today May has ruled out the possibility of an 'Australian Style Points System'. Which is understandable actually as its completely unworkable and unenforceable due to the number of unregistered EU residents we currently have.

Nor does it take into account what the actions of MPs and Lords might take in blocking a50 and not playing ball. Indeed Merkel may be quietly waiting to see what happens for this very reason. Let the British play it out, see what they find, see if people oppose it and block it. See if the government does collapse as a result. Afterall, this option, is better for Germany than either a new EU Treaty or the Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan.

She would come out of it with her hands clean.

This is also why May will not make any announcement nor make any promises over EU citizens in the UK. They simply aren’t part of the plan. Not at this stage at least. So why bother talking about such a sticky issue?

And it also explains the lack of an alternative plan to Off The Top of The Cliff Plan too, at this stage. It’s all about who will blink first.

OP posts:
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DoinItFine · 09/09/2016 09:16

Yes, LRB always worth reading.

I save their articles for nights when I can't sleep.

No thoughts on Lord Desai's bill? Any chance he was encouraged to bring it?

The fixed term parliament act sits very uneasily with the massive constitutional change required by Brexit.

tiggytape · 09/09/2016 09:53

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DoinItFine · 09/09/2016 10:09

One of the reasons for the 2011 Act in the first place was to prevent situations such as these - to prevent one party cynically kicking the other whilst it's down.

Well really it was to protect the Lib Dems from the Tories calling an opportunistic election.

There are very goid constitutional and democratic reasons for calking a GE before invoking article 50.

The fact that the Labour party has ceased to be a functional political organisation is no reason to suspend commitment to representative democracy.

To bring about a constitutional overhaul the size of Brexit with a parliament that opposes such changes is not at all in keeping with British democracy.

twofingerstoGideon · 09/09/2016 10:14

Interesting article here. Apparently Farage is upset at the appointment of Guy Verhofstadt as chief Brexit negotiatior.
Farage is quoted as saying: 'I can’t think of a man more insulting towards the British, our standing in the world, or even the concept of nation state democracy. I am convinced that with Verhofstadt in charge that EU exit will happen more quickly than I originally thought.'
Poor, poor Nige. Is he really saying he doesn't want a 'quick' Brexit?!
link
Also, PMSL at Nige having the audacity to call anyone in the European Parliament 'insulting' after telling them they'd never had a 'proper job' and drawing salary and expenses without bothering to turn up for votes.

TheBathroomSink · 09/09/2016 10:19

The fixed term parliament act sits very uneasily with the massive constitutional change required by Brexit

It does, but it does also somewhat mitigate the fact that the only opposition we have at the moment is the SNP. I think, if there was going to be a snap election over the referendum it needed to happen straight away, so you could then run the campaign on either upholding the referendum result or rejecting it. I think now, when it seems fairly clear TM would get a considerable majority and the Labour Party would probably end up broken beyond repair would not actually be good for anyone other than the most rabid Tories.

As to whether he was encouraged to bring it now, he's Chairman of Emily Thornberry's constituency party. Make of that what you will.

TheBathroomSink · 09/09/2016 10:22

Meanwhile UK expats are taking Juncker to court over his declaration that EU officials are banned from talking to us: www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/08/british-expats-challenge-eu-head-over-claim-he-banned-negotiations-with-uk-over-brexit

merrymouse · 09/09/2016 10:22

Practically there is no evidence that a general election would lead to a remain vote or even reduce the Tory majority, and in the mean time it would just delay reaching any decisions.

There is a difference between not being hasty about invoking article 50 and deliberately getting side tracked by an election.

Kaija · 09/09/2016 10:26

"the Labour Party would probably end up broken beyond repair would not actually be good for anyone other than the most rabid Tories"

Even more than the rabid end of the Tories, it would be extremely good for UKIP or its successor too.

DoinItFine · 09/09/2016 10:26

As to whether he was encouraged to bring it now, he's Chairman of Emily Thornberry's constituency party. Make of that what you will.

Hmmm. I'll certainly make something of it when I've had a chance to think it through.

Grin Not sure what though.

I agree that a GE would be a disaster for anyone but the Tories any time soon.

But I think that will still be the case at the end of this fixed term parliament unless Jeremy Corbyn and his militia are seen off somehow.

TheBathroomSink · 09/09/2016 10:38

But I think that will still be the case at the end of this fixed term parliament unless Jeremy Corbyn and his militia are seen off somehow

Yep, but if TM waits til then, she can't be accused of opportunism. Everyone's known when the next election will be since the last one happened, and if Labour chose to spend those five years bickering and failing to do their job as the official Opposition, they can only blame themselves.

Merrymouse - yes, I'm not saying I think a Remain campaign would necessarily win an election (or would have, had one been called back in June), but you could have made the argument for one, given the utter disarray of all things political at the end of June.

tiggytape · 09/09/2016 10:38

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DoinItFine · 09/09/2016 10:46

That's a totally separate issue to revoking the 2011 Act though.

No it's not.

Because the 2011 act removes the discretion to call a GE within the window where article 50 can reasonably be invoked.

The 2011 act has had a huge impact on how things have been played since June, and if it was repealed, that would alter the range of choices available to the PM.

The option to call a GE woukd be significant to political events, even if one was not called. As Gordon Brown could no doubt explain.

Being accused of opportunism for your choice of timing in calling an election hasn't troubled PMs too much for most of our democratic history.

Peregrina · 09/09/2016 10:55

Oh Dear! Why can't I shed any tears about what Verhofstadt called Farage, "....the biggest waste of EU money ever ...." GotFarage bang to rights then.

He also described the Brexit referendum as “a glorified cockfight” between Farage and Boris Johnson. Also true.

tiggytape · 09/09/2016 11:06

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tiggytape · 09/09/2016 11:07

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tiggytape · 09/09/2016 11:14

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merrymouse · 09/09/2016 11:27

but you could have made the argument for one, given the utter disarray of all things political at the end of June.

That assumes that all sides get together some cogent points and present respected research, we have intelligent debate and people remain open minded.

Unfortunately in the current post fact, post expert world...

TheBathroomSink · 09/09/2016 12:19

Unfortunately in the current post fact, post expert world...

Grin
ManonLescaut · 09/09/2016 13:18

Interesting that there will be Parliamentary debate on grammars but not Brexit. Why not call a referendum on grammars, and bypass Parliament altogether...

SwedishEdith · 09/09/2016 13:23

'I can’t think of a man more insulting towards the British, our standing in the world, or even the concept of nation state democracy. I am convinced that with Verhofstadt in charge that EU exit will happen more quickly than I originally thought.'

Did Farage really say that? I'm speechless. I can't think of anyone who caused more harm to the UK's standing and reputation in the world.

BreakWindandFire · 09/09/2016 15:57

Did Farage really say that? I

Yes. I saw a comment describing Farage whinging about Verhofstadt's appointment is like complaining about your spouse's divorce lawyer. Grin

SwedishEdith · 09/09/2016 18:35

What a dreadful man.

Angela Smith about last night's Labour loss in Sheffield said, "His supporters tell us that he’s won Parliamentary by-elections, but these were all in Labour seats.

They point to his rallies, but cheers from your supporters clearly don’t translate into votes at the ballot box. Just three weeks ago he spoke to the converted in Barkers Pool Square in Sheffield and a fat lot of good that did. Perhaps he should have brought them out to knock on doors and listen to the public instead.

They claim that he has motivated a huge number of people to campaign for Labour, and it’s true that 40 people were in Sheffield in a Momentum phone bank last night. Unfortunately, while we were knocking on doors and ringing residents to get them to vote Labour, they were ringing members asking them to vote for Jeremy."

labourlist.org/2016/09/angela-smith-the-message-from-mosborough-is-very-clear/

TheNorthRemembers · 09/09/2016 19:55

"while we were knocking on doors and ringing residents to get them to vote Labour, they were ringing members asking them to vote for Jeremy."

That says it all SwedishEdith.

Peregrina · 09/09/2016 20:07

But Sheffield Star reporter, Chris Burn, said Labour’s loss might also be related to the Grocutt’s anti-Corbyn stance and to the candidates’ proximity to the ward. Ms Smith lives in Mosborough, while Grocutt resides in Stocksbridge, roughly 16 miles away.

I took a lot of comfort from the fact that UKIP had done badly and the Tories hadn't done well, despite the media's Love Affair with all things May.

TheNorthRemembers · 09/09/2016 20:23

Fighting talk from Emmanuel Macron and the EU

EU presidential hopeful dismisses concessions for City of London and calls a ban on ‘financial passports’ a matter of sovereignty link

European commission drawing up plans based on US system, which charges applicants a fee
link

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