Good News for Leavers

[RortyCrankle]

To balance up this forum somewhat I thought it would be nice to have a thread with something more positive for us Leavers.

I think the attached is excellent news and well done Theresa May. www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-may-idUSKCN1120AK

It's pretty obvious to most Leavers that creating a new Government Department and putting the right people in place will take time and hopefully in 2017 we will see some move towards our aim.

It's amazing how ignorant in the true sense of the word some people are . Even I - not a historian ("O" Grade History is the highest exam I studied in the subject) - knew that universal franchise is a fairly recent construct .

Forget about women getting the vote - for much of the 19th century, even ordinary people men didn't have the vote unless they were landowners. I'm deliberately not posting a Wikiipedia link - but a BBC Bitesize page http://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/higher/history/democracy/changes/revision/1/ should be credible simple enough to explain.

The Magna Carta - while ensuring that the King couldn't claim divine right over everyone else and ride rough shod over his subjects - only enshrined the rights of the Barons (and some merchants) aka the Elite and very definitely didn't give any rights to the serfs (sound familiar? )

So if Leavers genuinely are extolling the virtue of the Magna Carta, it says everything that we suspected about the sort of democracy they expect

Please tell us why you think A50 should not be discussed, debated, scrutinised in parliament and why we should, instead, invoke something without full consideration of the basic terms of Brexit or the likely effects thereof

Because, we were given a basic in/out referendum - just because the result didn't go the establishments way, doesn't mean they can now 'scrutinise' Brexit untill they find something they can go to court over & stop it ( & they are desparately trying ) Withdrawing from the EU should not be impossible. when we signed up were we told we could never leave? If that's the case why is A50 even in the agreement? Why have a get out clause if it's so bloody difficult to leave that we just don't bother?
A50 is just the start of the process, once triggered we have 2 years to sort everything out, that is not rushing anything.
My view is simple. Don't offer me something you have no fucking clue how to deliver. This is for my prime minister to sort out not me.
We've been in the EU less than 45 years which is nothing in the great scheme of things. Nothing stays the same, we as people, communities, countries, are continually evolving & changing, & with that brings shifts in attitudes & ideas.
Enough people decided they no longer wanted to be part of an organisation they never even signed up for.

That's it. No more discussion needed.

Because, we were given a basic in/out referendum

Yes, well that was the first mistake.

just because the result didn't go the establishments way

LOL @ the idea that Rupert Murdoch, Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson are not 'the establishment'...

doesn't mean they can now 'scrutinise' Brexit untill they find something they can go to court over & stop it ( & they are desparately trying )

Well actually, yes they should, because we live in a parliamentary democracy where we elect MPs to act in our best interests. The irony is that most of them are more interested in saving their own skin than acting in our best interests, so they would probably scrutinise Brexit, conclude it is a terrible idea and then vote for it anyway 'because the people have spoken'. Would you offer your five year old a referendum on whether to eat a healthy diet with lots of vegetables or have chocolate for every meal? No? Thought not.

If that's the case why is A50 even in the agreement?

Because the UK campaigned vigorously for it to be included.

Why have a get out clause if it's so bloody difficult to leave that we just don't bother?

Because we live in a democracy, which apparently means we have the right to completely fuck ourselves up, should we choose to do so.

A50 is just the start of the process, once triggered we have 2 years to sort everything out, that is not rushing anything.

Hahahahahaha. You have no idea how long international agreements take to negotiate, do you? Two years is not even nearly enough time.

My view is simple. Don't offer me something you have no fucking clue how to deliver. This is for my prime minister to sort out not me.

YES. Exactly. This is what I have been saying all along.

We've been in the EU less than 45 years which is nothing in the great scheme of things. Nothing stays the same, we as people, communities, countries, are continually evolving & changing, & with that brings shifts in attitudes & ideas.

45 years is not a long time by evolutionary or geological standards. But in the context of modern history, the world has changed beyond recognition in that time.

Enough people decided they no longer wanted to be part of an organisation they never even signed up for.

The vast majority of those people don't have a clue what the EU actually is or how it works. Which is why so many people were Googling "What is the EU?" in the early hours of June 24th.

That's it. No more discussion needed.

Er, well, yes there is. Yay, democracy!

Are you going to take back the comment about me embarrassing myself?

I think you did far more of that than me.

"That's it. No more discussion needed."

Except there is, nearly half of those polled voted to remain, a very small majority does not indicate taking it in one way, Farrage said so himself. The referendum was never legally binding and therefore needs debate in our sovereign decision making body.

"Don't offer me something you have no fucking clue how to deliver"

No your job as a member of the electorate was to find out what the options were, how they would effect them, and what the possibilities were outside.

No, she's right about that bit. The government should never have offered something it couldn't deliver, because there was always a chance the people might vote for it. Who doesn't like unicorns, after all?

Are you going to take back the comment about me embarrassing myself?

No. Because you have no real knowledge of the MC & it's effect on our current democracy.
But don't worry, we can't know everything.

My view is simple. Don't offer me something you have no fucking clue how to deliver. This is for my prime minister to sort out not me.

And if there were ever an advert for why so called democracy sucks its this.

Decisions like this should never have been put in the hands of those so stupid and naive to think it was as simple as Yes or No despite what the ballot paper said.

So you vote for something led by a group of people who say, "we've had enough of experts." But now you say - it's for the PM to sort out i.e. an expert?

No more discussion needed - er so why has Theresa May been to talk to Sturgeon, Merkel, and others, if there is no discussion needed? I wonder if they were just meeting over tea and cakes, and May was swapping her lemon drizzle cake recipe for Merkel's strudel recipe, or Sturgeon's Dundee cake recipe?

So if May comes up with a 'soft Brexit' e.g. membership of the EEA, free movement of people, contribution payments, being bound by EU laws, you will say. "Right, that's fine"?

You do make me laugh surfer, my interpretation has been validated, your's not so.

"Because you have no real knowledge of the MC & it's effect on our current democracy."

I know exactly the effects on our current democracy, it was you that painted it as a victory for the people against the establishment when it was nothing of the sort, suggesting your knowledge ( as always) is lacking.

I promised not to comment if surfer answered. Thanks for responding, surfer (genuinely).

I'll leave it there

Surfer makes me laugh. Especially the embarrassing myself comment, when as I knew, it turns out I'm right, and she was wrong, again.

Magna Carta was not a victory for the common man, much later it was, but was never intended as so, and an attempt to paint it as so is flawed.

The vast majority of those people don't have a clue what the EU actually is or how it works. Which is why so many people were Googling "What is the EU?" in the early hours of June 24th.

Actually after all the fuss about this, it was less than a thousand people who googled this and there is no way of knowing if they voted leave or remain or abstained, or were even eligible to vote (teenagers for example).

"Haha, yes it does sound exactly like a breakfast cereal, doesn't it? Nice and crunchy."
Or cat food Brekkies that's crunchy too.

So if Leavers genuinely are extolling the virtue of the Magna Carta, it says everything that we suspected about the sort of democracy they expect

Yes all leave voters are extolling the virtue of the Magna Carta or perhaps one poster on MN made a throwaway comparison to it. Ok, add it to the list - uneducated, xenophobic, selfish, lads (from another EU thread), Magna-Carter-ophiles.....

Do you remember a couple of months ago when it wasn't possible to know everything about someone you had never met from how they voted in the referendum? It's so much simpler now isn't it?

Back you go again with the "all leave voters", you have to admit that on the whole leave voters don't cover themselves in glory when they're asked to explain why they voted leave. The Magna Carta claim for the common people is just another example of misunderstood information.

< sigh >
I said - I could post something rivalling the MC & you'd still take the piss - I could have used any important historical document to make my point, but that was the first one that entered my head.
It was you smallfox who carried the MC conversation on. I normally let things go on here, or just laugh at the posts full of bullshit, but your lack of understanding I thought needed addressing, for your sake more than mine.

Since your still around surferjet, I asked a direct question in my last post. Would you like to answer?

Surfer, you displayed your lack of understanding not me, displaying Magna Carta as some victory for the common man is utterly mistaken.

I won't bring up "all leave voters" if posters don't make unfounded generilisations about leave voters. Fair enough?

Small, you do seem to have a bit of an issue with the concept of "different views". Plenty of leave voters have explained their reasons for wanting to leave the EU on these threads. The reason you do not think they "cover themselves in glory" is because you disagree. If you agreed with them, you would have voted leave, wouldn't you. Of course you are not going to be convinced, in the same way I have not been convinced by anything I have heard from any remainers. That's because we don't agree.

The fact that remain voters do not agree with what leave voters say does not prove that what leave voters say is wrong.

Except that a lot of what leave voters say is very plainly wrong. And a lot of what they say isn't really saying anything at all. "Brexit means Brexit." "The people have spoken." Yadda yadda. Yes, ok, tell us what you want. Tell us what you think will happen. We are all dying to find out.

What other historical document could you use to make your point?

"The fact that remain voters do not agree with what leave voters say does not prove that what leave voters say is wrong."

Nope, that's like saying, just because I say the world is flat and you disagree doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Every single argument given by leave voters is fairly easy to dismiss, that's why the debate carries on so heavily.

It's fine to have an opinion, but not all opinions have equal validity.

Sorry smallfox, but you're a one trick pony, caught out unintentionally over MC.
You are clueless.

surfer, no one gives a shit about the Magna Carta. HTH.

Sorry Surfer, yet again you know nothing that you talk about.

Go do some research, I'll be proved right. Yet again.

How did Magna Carta, signed in 1215 benefit ordinary people, right then in 1215?

Many centuries later it became the basis of a British democracy, and rights for the common man, but not till much later.

Your ignorance and bravado with it is staggering.