So the Good Friday Agreement? How do LEAVE propose to sort? (on Brexit and Northern Ireland - title amended by MNHQ)

[RedToothBrush]

Go on. Lets have some answers.
Can we have a proper talk about how we can stop this affront to democracy and ripping up of a peace plan?

"This is an issue that upsets me a great deal. I posted when I was upset.

You might get that its an issue that provokes a lot of emotion. But then again you just won't get that. Mainly because it suits not to try and understand why that's the case and its easy to snipe about it."

I don't live in a bubble. I do understand that this is a highly emotional issue,and one which people find personally upsetting. I don't know what I've said to give the impression I don't. I am aware that NI has faced terrible division and violence and that it is frightening to think that might return.

I don't understand why that being the case makes it okay to make offensive generalisations about leavers (such as that they don't give a shit, which no-one has said). I don't think it is sniping to point out when this happens.

I have found the whole referendum process deeply distressing (note for clarity, I am not in any way comparing the ref to the Troubles). I feel that some relationships have been irreparably damaged. I believe it is now acceptable to talk about groups of people in a way which would not have been countenanced a short while ago.

I wish I was more articulate, and am very nervous of being misinterpreted as these threads seem to get very belligerent at times. NI is an issue which is difficult/complex/divisive/upsetting. So is the EU referendum. I just don't think belittling people's views, making gross generalisations and, well, just thinking that because people voted a certain way in the EU ref we must be aliens from different planets with no possibility of sharing views on anything gets anyone anywhere. People can not be expected to just ignore insults aimed at "leavers" as a homogenous one-minded group and continue discussing the topic in hand, that's just not how things work.

And I want to say that, having read further and thought about it, I was perhaps wrong to say that the motivation for this and related threads was to stoke division and I apologise for that.

I don't think that is probably the motivation. However I do think that it is often the result, which is a shame.

On the whole this thread has been extremely informative. It has highlighted that their is no option of saying 'whatever' to the problems of NI. If it ties Brexiteer politicians up in knots for a few years I for one will think they have only themselves to blame.

Since its now been demonstrated to you carol that the EU membership of the UK is specifically referenced in the GFA, why you added the 'if anything' is beyond me. It was one thing to defensively assert when you clearly didn't know what it actually said, but now you do. GFA will have to be altered if we Brexit. This is not a matter of opinion. The only thing anyone gets an opinion on is whether they care.

Also, while I think it's self-evidently not the case that no Leavers care about NI, the posts on this particular thread don't evidence a very high level of engagement with the issue. Nobody who gives a fuck would blithely tell us all they didn't think there needed to be any effect at all on GFA without having even read the first page, for example. It's an unusual analysis of the situation that reassures everyone we're not going back to householder only votes, whilst ignoring the concerns people actually have. Personally if I were a Leaver and upset by the criticism, I'd consider that actually illustrating I have engaged with the issue would be a stronger refutation than complaining about it. OP would have egg all over her face if someone posted a well thought out argument concurring that, whilst Brexit clearly impacts GFA and rewriting would be required, that could be positive because X, wouldn't she?

This is quite an important thread I think, and I'm certainly learning a lot from it. Could always ask MN to change the title to something neutral like "Brexit and Northern Ireland" to reduce bad feeling/defensiveness?

Wrongtrousers for the most part I think most remainers can accept a solution even if they don't like it at all. Because they'll have to. Even if its disastrous.

This however, is the one issue, where the same can not be said. It can not be brushed under the table or an unpalatable solution can be accepted.

This is why I find the dismissive comments really, really get to me.

People HAVE to understand what is at stake with this one. They have to properly understand the sensitivity and the nature of it to have any chance of a solution that's not going to be a complete disaster for one side or the others.

The real bottom line is this is the single most important issue that just can't be fudged.

Could always ask MN to change the title to something neutral like "Brexit and Northern Ireland" to reduce bad feeling/defensiveness?

Have put in a request.

Most people in England are only vaguely aware that Northern Ireland is tacked on to the UK at all. A seven year old is more likely to consider his annoying little sister than the English and Welsh are to consider NI, especially in a referendum that, for most voters, was about looking after Number One.

England is likely to suffer if the peace process dies. Not as much as Northern Ireland though, which feels more and more like an unwanted distant relative in the UK, having once been an inexplicably precious member of the family which no one (on either side) could apparently live without.

It's not surprising that most people don't think about NI: we have just had Team GB in the Olympics and not Team UK.

I know that Channel Islanders and Manx men and women are also included, who are not part of the UK but compete under our flag, and that those in NI can choose whether they represent the UK or Ireland, so neither description could be wholly accurate.

Maybe in 8 years time it will be TeamEW?

The GFA twice mentions the EU, once in the preamble which is irrelevant and once where:

The Council to consider the European Union dimension of relevant matters, including the implementation of EU policies and programmes and proposals under consideration in the EU framework. Arrangements to be made to ensure that the views of the Council are taken into account and represented appropriately at relevant EU meetings.

Which can still be accomplished. As I said, no change necessary.

The ECHR is mentioned several times, including:

The British Government will complete incorporation into Northern Ireland law of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR), with direct access to the courts, and remedies for breach of the Convention, including power for the courts to overrule Assembly legislation on grounds of inconsistency.

So a change in our relationship with the ECHR will cause the GFA to be rewritten.

I would be obliged if those who care so much about the NI position and are so desperate not to do anything to threaten it could point me to the threads this was discussed on at the time the Tories were talking about coming out of the ECHR - because I obviously missed those threads.

Why do you keep mentioning the ECHR as though you think that's some kind of refutation to the suggestion that leaving the EU will require the GFA to be amended carol? It isn't. It's possible for both things to be true, and indeed it is.

The GFA will need to be amended, because otherwise it will have reference to the UK being an EU member state. This is a change, a necessary one. You are wrong to say it isn't.

Also, here are some mentions of the EU in the GFA. Note that there are more than two of them.
--------------------

3 (iii) in an appropriate format to consider institutional or cross-sectoral
matters (including in relation to the EU) and to resolve disagreement.

ANNEX- STRAND 3

8.Relevant EU Programmes such as SPPR, INTERREG, Leader II and
their successors.

STRAND 5

1. The BIC will exchange information, discuss, consult and use best

endeavours to reach agreement on co-operation on matters of mutual interest within the competence of the relevant Administrations. Suitable issues for early discussion in the BIC could include transport links, agricultural issues, environmental issues, cultural issues, health issues, education issues and approaches to EU issues. Suitable arrangements to be made for practical co-operation on agreed policies.

AGREEMENT

Wishing to develop still further the unique relationship between their
peoples and the close co-operation between their countries as friendly
neighbours and as partners in the European Union;

None of them mention the requirement of either party to be a member of the EU, just consider the EU position in agreements.
Basically, it covers the fact that it was never a purely bilateral agreement because one or both parties could be tied by decisions made by the EU. Nothing changes with the UK not being in the EU, just that EU decisions may impact the choices/bargaining position of either party.

I mention the ECHR because changes to that are much more fundamental to the GFA, but no-one on here (AFAIK) raised a peep over it. That does tend to suggest it is remainers grasping at straws to complain about rather than a genuine concern for the position in NI.

Hallo let us know if you think the thread title would be better changed and w'ell do it.
Thanks
MNHQ

I think it should be left as is, because it is not a genuine concern, but a remainers rant, and should be left titles as such

It really is a genuine concern.

It is only a remainer rant if there is no answer to silence it.

But there seems to be a deafening silence because, in fact, no one did give a damn and it didn't occur to anyone to give a damn.

Despire what you believe Carol the EU is deeply rooted in the GFA by the very paras you quote. They will have to be amended by negotiation by the Irish government with uncertain political & economic consequences for NI - and the very real possibility of the resurgence of terrorism.

What of the EU policies and programmes it referencences? The EU Peace IV programme - supporting peace and reconciliation - including projects to promote peace and cross community relations?

I wasn't here when leaving the ECHR was mooted, but it was widely discussed as potentially tearing up the GFA and hindering the peace process. I find it very bizarre that you would judge awareness or interest in an issue on the basis of its discussion on a forum.

In fact I will say further, I never make personal comments on MN, but Carol your comments on this thread, on such a serious issue, are so obnoxious as to be repellent. You're not doing yourself any favours and I'd suggest you step away from the thread.

Ah don't argue with Carol, she won't change an opinion or a view, despite facts.

Well Carol can ignore the following facts -

The EU spent £1.3billion supporting the peace process since 1995. The latest funding pot 2014-2020 was worth £425 million.

Some of the those funds were intended for children and young people and also victims and survivors deal with the legacy of the Troubles.

Please don't suggest carol steps away from the thread, she's got me on tenterhooks to see how deep a hole she'll manage to dig next. It's fascinating. Must take a certain amount of balls not even to bother counting the references to the EU in the GFA before confidently declaiming how many there are.

Also.

None of them mention the requirement of either party to be a member of the EU, just consider the EU position in agreements.

Oh yes they doooooooo.....

AGREEMENT

^Wishing to develop still further the unique relationship between their
peoples and the close co-operation between their countries as friendly
neighbours and as partners in the European Union^

I have also asked for the thread title to be changed. This is an important issue so let the thread title reflect that.

I mention the ECHR because changes to that are much more fundamental to the GFA, but no-one on here (AFAIK) raised a peep over it. That does tend to suggest it is remainers grasping at straws to complain about rather than a genuine concern for the position in NI

No, it tends to suggest this is a subforum devoted entirely to the EU referendum. Not the UK's departure or otherwise from the ECHR. This idea that only one of Brexit or the ECHR could have an impact on GFA and/or NI generally is a strawman you've invented to savage, in order to try and detract attention from the issue actually being discussed. It's not either/or.