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Brexit

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

So the Good Friday Agreement? How do LEAVE propose to sort? (on Brexit and Northern Ireland - title amended by MNHQ)

506 replies

RedToothBrush · 24/08/2016 13:14

Go on. Lets have some answers.
Can we have a proper talk about how we can stop this affront to democracy and ripping up of a peace plan?

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GloriaGaynor · 25/08/2016 22:01

True, ironically I've argued the same myself despite what I've said here.

It surprises me that the behaviour of the British government in NI, and not just to the nationalists, wasn't enough to put Unionists off but apparently not. And you'd think this vote might give them pause.

But for many unionists it's not so much about being pro-UK but anti-other-Irish. Loyalists might argue that however the British have behaved the nationalists have behaved worse etc.

HyacinthFuckit · 25/08/2016 22:09

Ugh... complicated! In many ways a united Ireland would make a lot more sense, but the prospect of all that violence starting up again is pretty scary.

In some ways, but the people of NI have never come anywhere close to wanting a united Ireland. For two reasons: culture/identity and economics. The first has become less important as the proportion of the population that is Catholic increases. Not to say that British identity isn't still very important to many people in NI, just that they make up a lower percentage of the population than they used to.

It's been known for a number of years now that the key to maintaining the Union is Catholic economic unionists. People who don't necessarily have any emotional attachment to the UK, nor even identify as British, but who would prefer to remain because they think they'll be financially better off. Even the likes of Peter Robinson of the DUP identified this a while back. If a bigot like him understands that he needs to woo Catholics who hate him but like the NHS and their pensions, more moderate Unionists who don't think papists have tails obviously will get it too.

Of course, this only works as long as the UK is more financially attractive than ROI. We've never seriously seen that not be the case before. I'm going to risk being blamed for causing a recession by Brexiters on happy pills here, and say that we're entering a period of uncertainty where the economic case might be undermined. Or at least, people might think it will be. So those economic unionist votes are up for grabs. And not all economic unionists are Catholic. There are Protestants who don't prioritise a British identity above all things, and might consider reunification in the event that ROI looked like giving them a better quality of life than the UK did.

smallfox2002 · 25/08/2016 23:03

Ah see facts again. Well done P.

RBeer · 26/08/2016 00:21

The question of NI is a moot point. With Brexit the UK is sure to splinter so NI will only be a footnote in UK history. The majority unionists will always Bow to whatever Queen/King they choose.

HyacinthFuckit · 26/08/2016 08:54

Oh well, in that case none of us who live in NI and/or have loved ones there need to worry about unrest in the slightest. It's a moot point. Someone ring the loyalists and tell them they're on the wrong side of history. That's always worked before.

RedToothBrush · 26/08/2016 12:17

The question of NI is a moot point.

Once again proving that Brexiteers don't give a shit about anyone but themselves.

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Peregrina · 26/08/2016 12:55

No Brexiteers don't give a shit.

I read about Liz Truss's promise to scrap the Human Rights Act in the
Telegraph the other day, when most papers were busy concerning themselves about Corbyn and 'traingate'.

Since the ECHR is such an integral part of the Good Friday agreement, could the HRA be scrapped, and could the Irish Government take the UK one to court over the issue?

I know that TM said on the steps of Downing Street that she was no longer going to scrap it, but words said on the steps are usually pretty hollow.

I can't remember if this question has been asked and answered, so apologies if it has.

WrongTrouser · 26/08/2016 13:25

"The question of NI is a moot point.

Once again proving that Brexiteers don't give a shit about anyone but themselves."

Pretty low threshold of evidence for proof - one poster on MN!

MangoMoon · 26/08/2016 13:38

Once again proving that Brexiteers don't give a shit about anyone but themselves.

Once again proving Remainers are quite happy with sweeping statements & viewing Brexiters as a hive mind?

Peregrina · 26/08/2016 13:58

I think this thread has proved that substantial numbers of Brexiteers don't care about N Ireland.

WrongTrouser · 26/08/2016 14:19

I'm sure a substantial number of leavers don't care about NI. I'm sure a substantial number of remainers don't either.

I have been trying to understand the motivation behind these threads (eg this and the "not my circus.." one) and I'm finding it hard not to think that it's just to increase remainer/leaver division. Which does beg the question what is gained by that, and there I am stumped but I would love to understand what people think is to be achieved by trying to increase divisions.

RedToothBrush · 26/08/2016 14:25

Pretty low threshold of evidence for proof - one poster on MN!

On this issue its been lots and lots of shoulder shrugging and comments along the lines directly of 'I don't care'.

I am stumped but I would love to understand what people think is to be achieved by trying to increase divisions.

You know the Good Friday Agreement was one of these very things that stopped a lot of these divisions between England and NI interests.

So you know what happens when you do something that undermines that and threatens its removal....?

I'll give you a clue. It involves being divisive.

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WrongTrouser · 26/08/2016 14:32

Do patronise away, if it makes you feel better. I am talking about the divisions you are trying to stoke between remainers and leavers. I don't understand how increasing one sort of political/social division can help to solve another.

Anyway, I strongly feel I am wasting my time here as these threads are not to have a discussion and explore issues, they are to score points. Still don't understand what the point is but there you go.

GloriaGaynor · 26/08/2016 14:40

So you genuinely believe threads trying to understand Leavers' reasons for their vote and their projected Brexit outcomes, or analysing the NI situation are simply to fuel division? Really?

RedToothBrush · 26/08/2016 14:44

There are people going, "I don't give a shit about the fact that people died because its not where I live and its not my problem."

And I'm the one accused of stoking up things for getting upset because it has affected me and close friends and could start again in the future and I'm frankly scared and appalled by the indifference.

This is an issue that has had a profound effect on the day to day lives of people, and they are supposed to put up and shut up? They are not allowed to get upset at the implications?

Its actually the point I'm trying to illustrate.

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WrongTrouser · 26/08/2016 14:45

And also I don't think most posters have been saying they don't care. They have said it wasn't a deciding issue for them in the referendum, or they feel others are better placed to present solutions (surely not!) or that they don't feel the whole peace process is about to fall of a cliff. This is not the same as saying they don't care, but that doesn't fit with your point scoring agenda.

RedToothBrush · 26/08/2016 14:48

And also I don't think most posters have been saying they don't care

Well then, I suggest you get your eyes tested.

HTH.

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WrongTrouser · 26/08/2016 14:51

In all honesty, no I'm sorry but I don't believe these threads are about understanding leavers reasons for their votes. If they genuinely are, then I apologise but would suggest that some remainder pps might want to consider why that aim is not being met and whether it might be anything to do with the tone of some of their posts.

RedToothBrush · 26/08/2016 15:06

As I said on another thread about it.

This is an issue that upsets me a great deal. I posted when I was upset.

You might get that its an issue that provokes a lot of emotion. But then again you just won't get that. Mainly because it suits not to try and understand why that's the case and its easy to snipe about it.

Its fine. You can just go back to your bubble and forget about it now. Leave it up to someone 'elites' and 'experts' to deal with.

I get it. I do. I really do.

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GloriaGaynor · 26/08/2016 15:08

I think in that case that you totally misread the impetus to understand the Leave vote the dynamics that have brought us to the situation we're in.

The monkey thread in particular was a bit confrontational, I'm not particularly defending that, however I do think the desire to understand Leave position and its nuances is genuine. Because it has an impact on where this country will end up in the future.

whatwouldrondo · 26/08/2016 15:19

Wrong trousers Any binaries are devisive leave/remain, positive negative, angry / complacent. I am quite sure you cannot define the spectrum of voters from wholehearted support of a European state to the hardest Brexit voter according to these criteria and it is certainly devisive to try to do so. However the pattern in these threads is for the Leave voters posting here to come up with arguments which when links and evidence are presented to counter them they make no attempt to defend with like. I really appreciate these threads because I have learnt a lot. I have learnt a lot in debate on other issues too where I didn't agree with people's views but could respect the basis for them, for instance the Islamic perspective on world politics.

I am just struggling to accept that our country is plunged into an economic and political crisis, which is radically affecting my children's future, and that of friends in NI because the situation in Northern Ireland is a major component of that crisis and could potentially affect a lot of lives radically, and when you ask people what they think about this major drawback to what they voted for they basically respond with "So meh"

Peregrina · 26/08/2016 15:19

I'm sure a substantial number of leavers don't care about NI. I'm sure a substantial number of remainers don't either.

I am sure they don't, but it wouldn't have mattered - the Good Friday Agreement would have carried on as before. Now, if Brexit happens, it will have to be rewritten. So Leave politicians, at least, should have given it some thought.

(eg this and the "not my circus.." one) You must ask the Leave poster who said that initially.

caroldecker · 26/08/2016 15:29

As I've said before, the EU has very little if anything to do with the GFA - the ECHR yes, the EU no. I have not read anything that changes that opinion.

Peregrina · 26/08/2016 15:33

Except Carol as has been pointed out to you the EU is specifically mentioned in the wording of the Treaty.

charleybarley · 26/08/2016 15:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.