So the Good Friday Agreement? How do LEAVE propose to sort? (on Brexit and Northern Ireland - title amended by MNHQ)

[RedToothBrush]

Go on. Lets have some answers.
Can we have a proper talk about how we can stop this affront to democracy and ripping up of a peace plan?

I think the problem with this thread is that some posters are not clear whether they want to discuss solutions to any effects of Brexit on the peace process or to use this issue as another to have a go at leave voters with.

The problem with this view, I think, is that the issue the Remain voters on this thread have wrt NI is that we can't see a way to a solution, in the true sense of the word. It's something different to other Brexit issues in that respect. The Leave contribution on the thread has basically amounted to platitudes and NI is not a problem because insert spurious or incorrect thing here (we're not going back to gerrymandering, the EU is only mentioned twice in GFA, the turnout in England was x amount etc). That is, no solution. Then they've taken offence to having the inadequacy of those remarks pointed out, and tried to derail or said words to the effect of 'oh well, democracy'. Or worse. It is not the fault or doing of Remain posters that constructive discussion about a positive solution hasn't been possible. We did not create that situation.

Also who do you think said that mentioning non-NI voters, per se, is irrelevant?

I don't know whether there could be any solution via the Council of Europe? If so, the ECHR is an integral part of it, and has to stay.

What sort of thing were you thinking peregrina?

WrongTrouser, I'm the last person to defend non-voters, but as someone else has pointed out, even if 100% of the population of Northern Ireland had turned out to vote remain, they don't have a big enough population to have influenced the result. Not to mention the fact that Northern Irish MPs are conspicuously absent from Westminster politics. People in Northern Ireland are to all intents and purposes not represented in British politics.

In many ways, it is not particularly surprising if voter engagement in Northern Ireland is low, and the fact that the turnout was as high as it was is probably a good indication of how significant this could be for Northern Ireland. (And as some posters have already pointed out, there will be people in Northern Ireland who voted leave precisely because they want Northern Ireland to be reunited with the Republic.)

For what it's worth, I don't think it's realistic to expect leave voters to come up with the solution here. I do, however, hold leave campaigners responsible for encouraging people to vote leave without giving any attention to important issues such as this. We all know that Nigel Farage is a nasty little racist, and his campaign tactics should have surprised no one. It's also obvious that Boris Johnson and Michael Gove are just uber-Tories who probably didn't care whether we stayed in the EU or not but saw campaigning for leave as a way to advance their political careers.

But when you have Theresa Villiers, the Tory Northern Ireland secretary, and Kate Hoey, a prominent Labour leave campaigner who is from Northern Ireland, attempting to shut down the debate by dismissing any suggestion that the Northern Ireland peace process could be at risk, that is something I find shockingly irresponsible.

In the same way, I think Priti Patel and Gisela Stuart were flaunted as examples of "why the leave campaign cannot possibly be racist or xenophobic - look at our lineup".

I'm particularly pissed off with Gisela Stuart, a German immigrant who exercised her treaty rights to come and live here the year after we joined the EU, has benefited from free movement all that time, became a naturalised British citizen, campaigned for leave and is now expression "concern" that EU citizens living here are now facing an uncertain future and may find themselves being used as pawns in a political chess game not of their making. Well, no shit, Sherlock.

But you're right, I don't think it was really reasonable to expect the average voter in England or Wales to appreciate the significance of Brexit for Northern Ireland, and even if they did, most people vote for what they think will be in their own interests and don't care so much about people they don't know who live in other places. That's human nature. But it's just another example of why the referendum was a bad idea. Brexit could have very significant and harmful consequences to a number of minority groups and their lives could be very seriously affected, thanks to the actions of the majority, who were (a) not very well-informed and (b) acting in their own interests.

Agree that it wasn't realistic to expect the average voter in England or Wales to think much about NI when casting their vote. Not when you consider the level of ignorance most people are operating at on the matter.

The flipside to that, though, is that it isn't ok to imply that carol's accusation that we don't really care about NI (and presumably not our loved ones there either) is somehow the equivalent to Remain voters pointing out that Leave voters didn't care about NI and have now dropped them in the shit. Which WrongTrouser seems to come dangerously close to doing. By all means vote Leave because you think it's better for your constituent country and NI is just collateral, but own it and don't dare see your arse if people mention it.

By all means vote Leave because you think it's better for your constituent country and NI is just collateral

This is why referendums put minority groups at risk, IMO.

And now we are in a situation where the potential damage to various minority groups (e.g. the Northern Irish, British citizens living in the EU, EU citizens living here etc.) could far outweigh the benefits (if any) that the majority will get from leaving the EU. (For what it's worth, I don't think the majority will get any of the benefits they are expecting either.)

What sort of thing were you thinking peregrina?

Only vague thoughts about some other body that both sides recognise and can appeal to. Someone in the political ranks has to start thinking and pretty smartish too.

Wholly agree with your last post LoveInTokyo especially sharing your anger about Gisela Stuart. As for Gove, Villiers, I won't shed any tears if they find that their political careers, now apparently wrecked, stay wrecked.

I'm in two minds about Gove's sacking from the cabinet. Like you, I loathe the man and his fall from grace was amazing to watch. But now he is no longer in a position of responsibility, he's unlikely to take the blame for anything.

Boris will, I think, either be a very good foreign secretary or he'll do something stupid and get the sack. Either way, it's a win-win for Theresa May. Liam Fox will be twiddling his thumbs for the foreseeable future because even if we could get a move on with negotiating new trade deals with third countries, no one is interested in talking to us until they know what our future relationship with the EU is going to be. Andrea Leadsom may do something stupid and get the sack, but if she manages to stay in her role she will have nothing to do for the foreseeable future either, because she's in charge of a department where almost everything they do is coordinated at EU level and will continue to be until we actually leave.

David Davis is the only senior Brexit campaigner in the cabinet who actually has an important role to play in the near future.

(Sorry, I've gone off topic again!)

Boris could, I think, be perfectly competent if he put his mind to it. Maybe he will, with his eye on the PM prize?

David Davis, I don't know a lot about, so I looked him up, and it looks as though he is the sort who would prefer a Free Trade Area. I didn't see a squeak about N Ireland but, it's part of the Brexit process, so it becomes part of his remit.

David Davis thinks the UK has an 'internal border' with 'Southern Ireland', and has stated that 'we don't want to go creating any more internal borders inside the United Kingdom'.

He clearly doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.

"Also who do you think said that mentioning non-NI voters, per se, is irrelevant?"

A pp described this as an attempt to deflect from the core issue.

"The flipside to that, though, is that it isn't ok to imply that carol's accusation that we don't really care about NI (and presumably not our loved ones there either) is somehow the equivalent to Remain voters pointing out that Leave voters didn't care about NI and have now dropped them in the shit. Which WrongTrouser seems to come dangerously close to doing."

I don't think I did imply this. Criticising what one side is not implying that you agree with everything everyone on the other side says. Fwiw I would not for a moment suggest that pps on this thread are not genuinely concerned and worried about the effects of brexit on NI. I was saying discussion of this was getting mixed up general anti-leaver sentiment. I don't think that's the same.

He also demonstrated a woeful lack of understanding of how trade deals and the to work, but he's clever so he will get on top.of it.

He clearly doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.

You wonder where some of these people have been hibernating for the last 40 - 50 years? I imagine he's thinking back to the situation post 1922, conveniently forgetting that Ireland went into the EEC on the same day that the UK did, so the old arrangement could still stand.

I think the summary of Gisela Stuart's position is unfair to her. Free movement of persons was not introduced until 1992 in the Maastricht Treaty. Prior to that EU workers and students had freedom of movement for work and study which were only marginally preferential to rights for non-EU migrants. Residency and work confer rights to apply for UK citizenship over time. (prior to 1972 the UK was actively encouraging immigration from Europe and the "Commonwealth").

In summary GS probably feels that she came to the UK when there was a level playing field for all immigrants and this is in stark contrast with the EU freedom of movement rules and the every tightening restrictions on non-EU migrants.

In relation to the question of N Ireland, the ability of those born in N Ireland to apply for Irish citizenship means that they can in fact choose to remain in the EU even after Brexit.

Saying that something is an attempt to deflect from the core issue isn't quite the same as saying it's irrelevant, though wroungtrouser. The relatively high abstention rate in NI does merits discussion, especially as it usually has higher turnout than the rest of the UK. It's just not ok to try and pretend it's more significant than voters elsewhere ignoring NI, given that the tiny size of NI's population meant they could all have voted Remain, or none of them voted at all, and still had no impact.

And I accept that you didn't intend to present carol's comments as equivalent to people pointing out that lots of Leave voters in the rest of the UK didn't care about NI. This comment, however, made it sound like that's what you were doing:

But you can't have it both ways and expect leave supporters to not defend their position if you are attacking them (by which I mean for example, saying they don't care about NI...).

After all, if they didn't care, which it's pretty clear that the ones on here didn't or they'd have done some research, the only thing left for them to do if they don't want that mentioned is to attack the people doing the mentioning. Attack is the best form of defence etc. But as I say, I appreciate this isn't what you intended to do and wouldn't suggest you agreed with carol's revolting comments saying we're not really arsed about all our friends and family there.

In relation to the question of N Ireland, the ability of those born in N Ireland to apply for Irish citizenship means that they can in fact choose to remain in the EU even after Brexit.

Isn't this dependent on the GFA? So if that falls apart, the right to apply for Irish citizenship comes up for re-negotiation? These are all the sorts of questions which need to be clarified. When I did a Law module any student making a statement like 'clearly', 'I assume', was immediately pulled up on it.

This sort of discussion affects my family directly. DS saw no reason to apply for Irish citizenship when he got married to an Irish citizen, when the process (he said) would have been almost automatic, because he had the freedom of movement as an EU citizen. He could still apply, but it is now more difficult. He is going to make sure any family he has are registered immediately.

howabout, I just think it's completely hypocritical that she chaired the Leave campaign (which I think gave it an element of legitimacy that it wouldn't otherwise have had if it had been led by Farage or similar) and now she is clutching her pearls and expressing concern about the uncertainty that people who have exercised their treaty rights now find themselves in. It was an entirely obvious and predictable consequence of a Brexit win, and something she should have thought about before the referendum, not afterwards.

And the Northern Ireland question isn't just as simple as being able to choose to remain an EU citizen by applying for an Irish passport. I don't know how old you are, but I'm only 30 and I still clearly remember a time when Northern Ireland was still regularly in the news for some violent incident or another. It was only during Blair's administration that things finally settled down. For about the last 20 years the people of Northern Ireland have rubbed along OK, with most people largely accepting the status quo. But thanks to Brexit, the Northern Ireland question has reared its ugly head again.

On the day of the referendum result (and before the referendum in some cases) there were already calls for a border poll on reunification. Some people will see Brexit as an opportunity to campaign for a change in the status of Northern Ireland and finally get what they want after all those years. Others will want to protect the status quo and resist any calls for reunification. Whichever way it goes, there will be people on both sides who will be unhappy, and may resort to violence to make themselves heard.

Can you not understand how destabilising that could be for a community like Northern Ireland? Many people who live there will have lost close friends and relatives in the troubles. It's not some long-forgotten bit of ancient history.

Only vague thoughts about some other body that both sides recognise and can appeal to. Someone in the political ranks has to start thinking and pretty smartish too.

I could see that working for the politicians, it's the people they can't bring along with them that concern me. Actually the behaviour of the political leaders since the referendum has been quite logical, I think. McGuinness is raising the issue of a reunification vote and Foster pushing for an EU in all but name, subsidy protecting type of Brexit. Exactly what I'd do in either of their shoes.

In relation to the question of N Ireland, the ability of those born in N Ireland to apply for Irish citizenship means that they can in fact choose to remain in the EU even after Brexit.

Well, they can choose to remain EU citizens. They can't choose to remain in the EU because the land they live on won't be part of it. They'd have to go to the EU. Not the same thing. Actually all British people are able to come and live in ROI on more favourable terms than other EU citizens (ditto Irish to the UK) and this isn't likely to change, so we could all choose to remain in the EU if we wanted as long as we don't mind moving country. The non-NI UK folks just wouldn't automatically have citizenship.

Also if Stuart feels she came when there was a level playing field for all immigrants, that's unforgiveably ignorant of her and she deserves deselecting for that alone. Reason being that the view you suggest she might hold howabout would appear to conflate non-EU Commonwealth with non-EU full stop. There certainly wasn't anything approaching a level playing field between the EU, the Commonwealth and the rest of the world when Stuart came to the UK.

Irish citizenship is not dependent on the GFA but on the Irish constitution and provisions dating back to 1956.

I am not much younger than GS and live in the West of Scotland where there are still regular reprisal killings, interceptions of arms shipments, Orange marches and sectarian tensions. I do not believe peace in N Ireland is dependent on the GFA or Brexit but as everywhere on the will of the people.

Thanks howabout I didn't know that.

howabout sums up my view.

I do not believe peace in N Ireland is dependent on the GFA or Brexit but as everywhere on the will of the people.

It rather depends what you mean by the will of the people. If all the people want peace, peace you're going to get, but sometimes it only takes a few of the people to prevent peace. Presuming you get this, the question that leaves us with is do you see that Brexit might have an impact on the will of the people?

How is irrelevant?

I didn't say non-voting was irrelevant simply that it was being used to deflect from the main issue.