So the Good Friday Agreement? How do LEAVE propose to sort? (on Brexit and Northern Ireland - title amended by MNHQ)

[RedToothBrush]

Go on. Lets have some answers.
Can we have a proper talk about how we can stop this affront to democracy and ripping up of a peace plan?

I think that a lot of people thought that David Cameron, including DC himself, would pull off a surprise win, as he did with the 2015 election. I also think that when he promised a Referendum he was expecting the LibDem part of a Coalition to stop it.

What surprised me with the Bill in December 2015 authorising the Referendum is how many MPs had voted for the legislation, without securing necessary checks like a 2/3 majority or agreement of all constituent nations. I don't know how the N Irish MPs voted, but other than that, I think only the SNP didn't vote for the Bill.

Hyacinth, I didn't make any reference at all to posters suggesting that the UK voted remain, why would I?!

You said:
If we're going to be looking at the percentage of the population rather than votes cast, the UK as a whole hasn't come anywhere close to voting Brexit.

That's the strawman!
I just pointed out that if you're going to use that argument against Brexit being the majority vote, then the UK as a whole was even further away from endorsing Remain.

Wrt 'providing the constituent figures' that was in direct answer to your question:
Meanwhile, could you tell us what level of turnout would've been needed in NI before any voter anywhere else could expect any criticism at all for not giving a fuck?

What level would have been enough?
Well there's your answer - Gibraltar managed 83.7%; Scotland in indyref managed 84.6%.
All of the constituent countries in the EU ref had higher turnouts than NI.
62.7% turnout is quite apathetic in comparison.

Ah mango, but with the turn out for England your can't say that the mandate for leave is overwhelming just 37 percent of the electorate voted to leave.

It's not a majority.

We will be leaving the EU but it would be nice if you actually admitted that it wasn't a fantastic victory, in fact with so many voting in issues that were nothing to do with the EU or on false information, I'd say it was a hollow one. If you have to dupe poor sods to win it'a not really a win.

I said it was the majority of those who voted smallfox, which it was.

If you didn't vote, your opinion didn't matter a jot - we all knew this.

your can't say that the mandate for leave is overwhelming just 37 percent of the electorate voted to leave.
Exactly (although slightly higher at 37.4%)
And the mandate for Remain was even less at 34.7% of the electorate.

And 27.8% couldn't give a toss either way - presumably happy to go along with the majority vote.

Still a hollow victory when leave had to lie outrageously to win.

I'm going to laugh when whatever settlement is made and it sounds like it will make a difference, but nothing much will change.

In the end no one wins here, and your ordinary leave voters get nothing that they voted for.

Hyacinth, I didn't make any reference at all to posters suggesting that the UK voted remain, why would I?!

Nobody said you had. You did, however, do what you've done a number of times on this thread and dispel an irrelevant point that hadn't actually been raised. A less charitable person than I would be starting to doubt whether it was coincidental.

Meanwhile, you still haven't given us a figure for your prescribed turnout, simply restated turnouts elsewhere. And nor have you explained how you'll be squaring this argument with the fact that even a 100% NI Remain vote would have changed nothing, let alone 83.7% or 84.6.

Well there's your answer - Gibraltar managed 83.7%;

Gibraltar voted overwhelming to Remain, something like 96% which is as good a mandate as any, and a fat lot of good it's done them. Cameron might just as well have said F*ck off to them. They don't have the same history of violence as NI, but they certainly have had a history of long-standing tension with Spain.

We will be leaving the EU but it would be nice if you actually admitted that it wasn't a fantastic victory, in fact with so many voting in issues that were nothing to do with the EU or on false information, I'd say it was a hollow one. If you have to dupe poor sods to win it'a not really a win.

And the sad thing about this smallfox with the Hard-Brexit camp making the running, 16 million people will be totally pissed off, including two Countries and an overseas territory, and even a number of the Leave camp, who were voting for things like the NHS. All because of 40 or so Eurosceptic MPs, that David Cameron hadn't the guts to stand up to.

A less charitable person than I would be starting to doubt whether it was coincidental.

Get a grip.

Clearly nothing I say will ever be good enough, so I'll just do you the favour of buggering off.

Wrt most things referendum related though, I'm more interested in the motivations for the non voters as we've already heard ad infinatum the motivations of the Remain/Leavers.

Perhaps instead of demanding answers from the 37.4% of total UK leave voters wrt NI, the 37.3% of NI voters who didn't vote would be a better place to start?

What do the people of NI actually want?
Peace presumably.
How best to achieve it?
United Ireland, remain in EU - or NI as part of UK outwith the EU?

This is for the people themselves to decide, not 'the English'.

Nope. Demand answers from those who voted leave. Why? What did you think you would get? What settlement will you be happy with?

Answers on a postcard...

What do the people of NI actually want?
Peace presumably.
How best to achieve it?
United Ireland, remain in EU - or NI as part of UK outwith the EU?
This is for the people themselves to decide, not 'the English'.

So they did, and called it the Good Friday Agreement - well that's its nickname.

So the English, said, we had a vote, and we voted Leave, so yah, boo, sucks to you, because there are more of us, and we are more important. "Good Friday Agreement? Oh, what's that then?"

I think it is not realistic to imply that voters thought there was no possibility of a leave win

Not what I said at all.

it does suggest that if people were not bothered to vote in the EU ref it was because they were undecided or unbothered rather than that they were confident in a remain outcome

I think there were myriad reasons for not voting. Undecided, unbothered and thought Remain would win among them. We know for sure that some people voted Leave thinking Remain would win because they have said so. It stands to reason that would apply to non-voters too. But to be clear I'm not denying there are Leave sympathisers who didn't vote.

What do the people of NI actually want?
Peace presumably.
How best to achieve it?
United Ireland, remain in EU - or NI as part of UK outwith the EU?

You think attempting a united Ireland right now is likely to achieve peace? Do you have any grasp at all of what the Troubles were about?

The GFA was the best outcome to achieve peace. That was predicated on both ROI and the UK being EU members.

What did remain voters want? The status quo wasn't an option because the EU changes over time. So are all remainers exactly aligned on exactly what outcome they wanted? And given the UK is not a majority of the EU, how would they have ensured it was delivered?

Clearly nothing I say will ever be good enough, so I'll just do you the favour of buggering off.

Don't do yourself down mango, I'm sure you're capable of giving a straight and sensible answer. Probably. Just because you've not done it on this thread doesn't mean it's impossible for you. Although I will say your comment about how the people of NI rather than 'the English' get to decide for themselves was a new low, since it's been explained to you a number of times on this thread that the expressed constitutional preferences of the people of NI are rendered impossible on Brexit.

Remainers wanted to stay in the EU, changing the EU over time is better negotiated from within that having to adapt to it from outside, which we will still have to do. Remainers saw the benefits of remaining far outweighed the possible and unconfirmed benefits of leaving, and that noting our trading position with the EU the risks of leaving were far higher than those of remaining.

No one conducting a cost benefit analysis of the British relationship in the EU could actually come out with the verdict that the costs outweighed the benefits, and in fact there would be a significant net present benefit of membership.

Remember that leave couldn't even formulate a coherent point on what the position of trade, regulation, immigration etc would be with the EU on leaving, we knew what these would be on remaining.

I note too, with some irony, that a Brexit is going to be forced through without parliamentary debate, despite the fact that the act that created the vote did not make in legally binding ( Cameron said he would follow it but he resigned), so we have a government that no one voted for, pushing through legislation outside of parliamentary democracy, yet leavers objected to the EU being undemocratic?

Undermines you totally yet you don't see it! Kind of proves the paucity of your arguments.

It was a manifesto commitment to honour the result.
The government we have is the one voted for at the 2015 GE.

Yes stay in the EU, but what does that look like exactly, where is it going what is its future, what trading relationship will it have with other countries over time, what will its new members be, what changes will it agree with Switzerland over free movement?

How do you know it is better to stay - what is the future?
Can't you see you are being incredibly idiotic voting for an unknown?

Can't you see you are being incredibly idiotic voting for an unknown?

Said without a trace of irony.

Manifesto commitments are not legally binding, nor should you be able to by pass parliamentary democracy to implement them.

And as the leader of the Government and all but one of the senior positions has changed, no this isn't the government people voted for in the 2015 election, merely the party, not the same thing.

How do I know it is better to stay? Because of the certainties that come at least short and mid term with staying within the EU, and the ability to influence changes within the EU when they do come about.

You vote was for the uncertain, what certainties can you give short or medium term? None.

How can you possibly critique any remain vote for being "uncertain" when you and every other leave voter don't know anything about what position leaving the EU will put us in.

Why should leave be forced through, without the terms and conditions being ratified by parliament?

I see democracy only counts when voted are won on spurious reasons, and when your side wins .

No-one has said, AFAIK, that the terms will not be discussed. There does not need to be a debate on triggering article 50 as it is a binary descision, so nothing to debate - yes or no. Conservatives vote yes with majority and lords vote yes through Salisbury.

All I am saying is Remain is as uncertain as Leave - you failing to realise that is your real problem.

That's actually just a lie Carol Because the current terms of our political, economic and legal relationship with the EU are known, but we have no idea what it will be in the future. We know our current trading footing with the EU and the rest of the world. We have no idea with Brexit what those terms would be with Europe let alone the world. No idea if we will be in the single market or the customs union. We know the current immigration policy and the status of EU nationals here and UK nationals abroad. We could identity all the areas of funding from the EU with precise amounts. We have no idea what they will be in the future.

Gloria

We know where we are today, and even if we envoke Artricle 50 now, where we are for the next 2 years.

Assuming we had remained, just a couple of, the many, questions you can't answer -

What would be the UK contribution to the EU in 2021?
Will there be free movement with Switzerland in 2017?
When will the Canadian trade deal be signed?
What will be new VAT rules being discussed?

I'm not sure whether it is hyperbole, but Small are you really saying that we have an unelected government?

What would be the UK contribution to the EU in 2021?

Likely to be lower now that CAP susbsidies will be paid for by individual governments.

Will there be free movement with Switzerland in 2017?

Most likely yes, the feeling amosngst the Swiss has changed since its own referendum.

When will the Canadian trade deal be signed?

International trade deals are difficult and therefore no one can say.

What will be new VAT rules being discussed?

New rules on VAT were being discussed prior to Brexit, it was likely to allow governments more discretion, but still seek some cross border similarities for ease of freedom of trade.

I'm suggesting Wrong that we have a government that doesn't have an electoral mandate, you know the same criticism that Theresa May aimed at Gordon Brown? Cameron's government had an electoral mandate, not this one.

Some questions for Carol.

Will UK banks retain EU passporting rights?

Will FDI from EU firms fall?

Will freedom of movement from the EU cease?

Can you be sure that the UK will not be required to make EU contributions?

Will the UK still have to enact EU regulations in order to continue trading with the EU ( the same deal as CETA)?

Will industries located in the UK but with large EU markets still continue to use the UK as its base?

How long will trade deals take to discuss with the 52 other countries that the UK currently trades with through EU deals? If they are will those deals be as preferential?

If the recession occurs, how long will it take us to recover?

How long will it take to cement WTO trade agreements?

There is a lot more uncertainty with Brexit than there is with remaining.

Oh this is fun! Lets have some more:

As all of the car manufactures stated a preference for remaining, will leaving the EU mean that future investment has been jeopardised and jobs placed at risk?

What does leaving the EU mean for our pharma and aerospace industries that also specified a preference for remain?

Will high level research jobs in the UK be guaranteed to receive funding?

Will Universities have their lost funding replaced by UK government grants?

What risks does Brexit place upon the standard of living in the UK now that it is highly likely that inflation will rise significantly in the next year?

Will the Government respect current levels of workers rights?

Will areas that were due to receive guaranteed economic development funding have this replaced with government funds?

What impact will leaving the EU have on the NHS?

What impact will leaving the EU have on the NI peace process?

What impact will the fall in returns on gilts have on pensioners?

Much larger and more difficult questions to ask about the future than the ones that you asked, which were rather small fry..

"I'm suggesting Wrong that we have a government that doesn't have an electoral mandate, you know the same criticism that Theresa May aimed at Gordon Brown? Cameron's government had an electoral mandate, not this one. "

I don't agree. The system in this country is that the electorate elect MPs and the majority party then elect a leader who is the PM and forms the government. I am not really interested whether TM tried to criticise GBs government on this basis, it's not relevant.