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Brexit

Westministenders Continues. The one where are being grateful for having a Boris rather than a Trump and UKIP show Labour how it’s done.

985 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/08/2016 22:18

THE BREXIT FALLOUT CONTINUES - THREAD TWELVE

The calm of the eye of the storm is upon us. The signs are there that more trouble is ahead. What now for Brexit, the blank cheque for our future?

May’s honeymoon can only last the Summer, until she has to do some proper graft. Her Cabinet have all gone on holiday and to swat up on their new specialised subject, and by god have they got some homework to do.

Well, all of them apart from Liam Fox, who has bugger all to do for some time.

Johnson needs to… well we all know what Boris needs to do. Bend over and take it like a good boy.

Davies needs to learn the entire structure and workings of the EU and its variations of trade agreements and relationships with other nations. Juncker has the FUKD in his little black book of people who have crossed him (yes, he actually has one of these) and has put Brit Hating Barnier in charge of the EU Brexit team. Davies must somehow hold his own against this experienced EU hardnut. In French. Oh and find a permanent office.

What do the others need to learn? Hammond - how to perform a bloody miracle. Patel - it is illegal to use foreign aid as a leverage for trade deals. Leadsom – er everything? Rudd – how to do bigger assault on liberty and human rights than her mentor. Fallon – how we will afford to defend ourselves with pitch forks, especially if we can’t use Trident for some reason and it becomes necessary. Our enemy; Russia? North Korea? Turkey? Isis? Na. Trump if he wins.

Brexit is now officially in the hands Whitehall’s unbelievers. Those overstretched officials who are already saying there is a gap in their capacity to deliver what Parliament wants without additional the burden of Brexit. These discredited experts are left wondering if their challenge is, in reality, Mission Impossible, and this is made worse by the pressure that just about every senior Brexiteer seems to say is ‘easy’ despite all the mounting evidence to the contrary. Which is cold comfort to everyone who voted – Remain or Leave alike.

We still don’t even know what Brexit is. It is still something which has no coherent ideology and no clear set of prescriptions for what ailes us as a society. It is a bundle of contradictions, united chiefly by what, and who, it opposes. Whatever the problem, Brexit can fix it. Whatever the threat, internal or external, Brexit can vanquish it, and it is unnecessary for Brexiteers to explain how.

May’s plan? Some say that she is the Dear Leader, some say she is an evil genius with Larry the Cat on her lap waiting for the Brexiteer Boys to fuck it up so we can Remain, some say she is blessed by the Ghost of Thatcher but we know her as The PM. –Sorry I’ve been itching to make the May/Hammond Top Gear gag for several weeks— The truth is, we just don't know yet.

Plus anything Brexit related about the Labour and UKIP leadership and the rest of the world thrown in to boot.

This is the quest for the answers that everyone wants and trying to keep an eye on those politicians and accountability (both here and abroad in the era of post-fact politics in the trail of Brexit). There maybe no single ‘truth’ but there sure as hell is a lot of bullshit to wade through. Get your wellies out, and plough on through with us.

No experience necessary. Sense of humour required.

-------------------------

Brexit Fall Out Timetable
Labour Hustings Nottinghamshire: Wednesday 17th August
Labour Hustings Birmingham: Thursday 18th August.
Labour Hustings Glasgow: Thursday 25th August.
Labour Hustings London: Thursday 1st September
UKIP Leadership Result: 15th September
Labour Leadership Result: Saturday 24th September
The Department for Exiting the European Union first question sessions in Parliament: Thursday 20th October
High Court hearing on a50: due 'no earlier than the third week in October'
US Presidential Election: 8th November
French Presidential Election 1st Round: 23 April 2017
French Presidential Election 2nd Round: 7th May 2017
German Federal Election: Between 27 August and 22 October 2017

Last thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2690632-Westminstenders-Continues-Boris-is-having-a-bad-week-Corbyn-resists-Its-gonna-be-a-long-summer?pg=1

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RedToothBrush · 16/08/2016 13:21

Its gone quiet, plus everything on the Labour leadership pretty much says the same thing. It was at the point where pointing anything was becoming mind numbingly dull, since they all say the same thing but different as there has been very little new to comment on.

I have just seen this though:
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/16/labour-elections-boss-sought-to-hike-criticism-of-eu-before-referendum?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet
Leaked emails from Corbyn over referendum. (dated Feb)

Labour really need to sort their party policy on the EU it does have to be said. Its the one area that Smith is supposedly doing better on than Corbyn. I am not seeing a clear policy emerging from Corbyn. Its sort of being almost ignored and brushed under the carpet by him still as far as I can tell. This was the problem BEFORE the referendum, and it doesn't seem to have been fully resolved. Corbyn does seem to just ignore anything 'a bit difficult' or he isn't fully committed to on a personal level and shows no leadership on.

The trouble is that the EU is perhaps the single biggest issue we currently NEED leadership and opposition on for the foreseeable future.

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects

Public opinion on Theresa May:
Favourable: 48%
Unfavourable: 36%
(via YouGov / 11 - 12 Aug)

The honeymoon, is starting to wane...

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RedToothBrush · 16/08/2016 13:27

If you are Times paywalled out, then this snippet of today's article is interesting enough on its own.

Westministenders Continues. The one where are being grateful for having a Boris rather than a Trump and UKIP show Labour how it’s done.
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IAmNotTheMessiah · 16/08/2016 13:30

Somewhat dwarfs the "£350 million" that they were harping on about.

prettybird · 16/08/2016 13:42

£5 billion Shock** over the next decade and that's only what they're estimating now Hmm

That's £500 million per annum ShockAngry - and no rebate Hmm And no regional development grants or research grants or culture grants.....

HmmSad

Motheroffourdragons · 16/08/2016 13:53

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Motheroffourdragons · 16/08/2016 13:54

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Corcory · 16/08/2016 13:54

We pay nearly £13billion a year to the EU after the rebate at the moment so a 26th of what we currently pay.

Corcory · 16/08/2016 14:05

There will obviously be discussions about the starting point and where our red line is on all aspects of our negotiating stance but I can see no reason why on earth these should be public. If they were we would show our hand to the EU negotiators.

Motheroffourdragons · 16/08/2016 14:17

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Motheroffourdragons · 16/08/2016 14:21

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prettybird · 16/08/2016 14:26

I suppose we should be grateful for the trickle-down benefit of all that money spent on private sector management consultants and lawyers Hmm

RedToothBrush · 16/08/2016 14:33

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

There are rumours on twitter that Michael Gove has grown a beard.

This could be the scariest post-Brexit fact of them all. I fear it may be true.

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HesterThrale · 16/08/2016 14:40

'Election necessary to authorise potential breakup of UK':

infacts.org/election-needed-authorise-potential-break-uk/

Kaija · 16/08/2016 14:58

I never want to see that facial hair. First Farage's heave-inducing moustache and now this. Don't you love the way these Brexit buffoons are adopting cunning disguises now. I suppose Boris' disguise as international statesman has to be the most ludicrous and implausible of all.

missmoon · 16/08/2016 15:00

There will obviously be discussions about the starting point and where our red line is on all aspects of our negotiating stance but I can see no reason why on earth these should be public. If they were we would show our hand to the EU negotiators.

Unless the parliament gets to debate the "red lines" before A50 is triggered, it's hands will effectively be tied: approve our secretly negotiated trade agreement, or else fall back to WTO rules (or worse). Unless the debate is held now, we will end up with something that is profoundly undemocratic, as there is no mandate for any particular form of Brexit.

HesterThrale · 16/08/2016 15:03

Regarding a parliamentary debate, there will be one on 5th Sept:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

It says in the response that they're debating it because so many (4,143,200) signed the petition (and still are), but in NO way are 'they supporting the call for a 2nd referendum'.
'MPs can put forward a range of views on behalf of their constituents.' So we should all write of our views to our MPs. It may be all we've got. And I'd hate to think the 'range of views' were all from emphatic Leavers.
Make them do their job, even if they only go through the motions.

RedToothBrush · 16/08/2016 15:05

www.theguardian.com/careers/2016/aug/16/why-are-uk-workers-so-unproductive?CMP=twt_gu
Lack of British productivity.
I note here that the right of the tories want to deregulate more, thus creating more job insecurity for workers...

www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2016/aug/16/pro-and-anti-brexit-newspapers-reflected-leave-vote-shock-says-study?CMP=twt_gu
Study on the reaction of the press to the Brexit vote. It might surprise you.

www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/new-ni-secretary-to-canvass-public-opinion-on-brexit-1.2757900?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
The new NI sec to 'canvass opinion' on Brexit.

researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN05125#fullreport
Latest report on party membership (goes up to the end of July)

2013 was the lowest level on record with just 0.8% of the country being members. This has doubled to 1.6% currently.

The graphs in the full document are interesting. Labour seems to be growing, as does the SNP and Lib Dems, whilst membership of the BNP, UKIP and the Greens seems to have peaked and is declining slightly. (The Cons don't publically reveal any of this information.)

The report also, has this break down of membership though it is dated now, its interesting to reflect on. I note the education level and age of Labour Party members in particular here. Its not exactly older trade union types. Remember this is pre-Corbyn by 3 years, so I expect that this has got younger.

Westministenders Continues. The one where are being grateful for having a Boris rather than a Trump and UKIP show Labour how it’s done.
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Kaija · 16/08/2016 15:11

Yes, Prettybird. Sometimes in my more wildly optimistic moments I wonder whether the vast amounts of money, time and energy that will have to be poured into this will at least provide a sort of bureaucratic Keynesian stimulus. Brexit is really the ultimate example of digging holes to fill them in again.

prettybird · 16/08/2016 16:13

I vaguely recall during my Economics lectures at Uni, one prof saying that the only way to have guaranteed non-inflationary growth was to have a war Hmm Maybe this is the equivalent - after all, one of the other EU threads is positing civil war as a consequence Shock

.....somehow I don't think that was the intention Hmm

Unicornsarelovely · 16/08/2016 16:38

I'm reading Robert Harris' dictator at the moment on Cicero and the assassination of Julius Caesar.

The parallels in the dilettantes without a plan creating a huge upheaval and then sitting around helplessly are unnerving. Especially as that ended in civil war and dictatorship.

I'm debating trying to find the Latin for some of the quotes and sending them to Boris, just as a friendly reminder.

SwedishEdith · 16/08/2016 17:20

'Nigel Farage Refuses To Deny Claim He’s Applying For German Citizenship'. Don't know how reliable this is - incendiary, if true.

www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/nigel-farage-refuses-to-deny-claim-hes-applying-for-german-c?utm_term=.onDzrJ3mB#.ciqAXVokW

SwedishEdith · 16/08/2016 17:26

And speaking of war and governments creating it for other purposes, I read this yesterdayJoseph Goebbels’ 105-year-old secretary: ‘No one believes me now, but I knew nothing’. Some good comments about at what point do you act when you see/know something is wrong but acting may incur violence or worse.

StripeyMonkey1 · 16/08/2016 17:52

With apologies for the length of this (I couldn't find a way to link it) - Robert Peston's Facebook post today is pretty interesting

It is seven weeks since the UK voted to leave the EU. What have we learned since then about the choice we made?

Well not a great deal, other than Theresa May's gloriously resonant and opaque "Brexit means Brexit" – which is why I have been digging around to get some sense of what the second "Brexit" in that aphorism of this new age represents.

I am reliably told that Brexit, for May (and therefore for us), equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

Why those three pillars of our new relationship with the EU? "It's what the people voted for", a senior government member tells me – with a certainty that suggests it would be pointless to raise doubts.

The point is that those pillars will determine our future relationship with the EU, especially our economic and trading relationship. So they really matter.
And, my goodness, they carry a weighty consequence.

They imply that we cannot possibly be a full member of the European Union's single market, or of the European Economic Area, like Norway. Nor could we have a Swiss-style status of quasi single-market membership.
Why not?

Well in those three instances of de facto single-market membership we would not have full discretion over who could live and work here, we would be subject to some EU lawmaking and we would probably have to make some billions of pounds of contributions to the EU’s budget.

At this point, if you are a British exporter you may well be profoundly anxious that the prospect of retaining relatively frictionless and costless access to the EU's consumers and business customers is looking remote.

That would be painful for all of us, because it would mean that a significant portion of the 40% of our trade that goes to the EU would be at risk of withering away, at the cost of making it even harder for us to repay our big debts.

So is it time to blame Brexit and the Brexiteers for not just the short-term economic slowdown that is upon us, but a longer-lasting brake on our growth (which, as it happens, was built into the Bank of England’s latest forecast)?

Well it depends on the quantum of additional cost we would bear when trading the EU – and the magnitude of that cost can yet be limited.
It is not yet inevitable that our access to the EU will be on the basis of the World Trade Organisation’s tariff structure – which would add, for example, a 10% tax on car trade.

There is an alternative model for our new economic arrangement with the EU – which, I am told, has a 75% chance of being negotiated successfully (that is a wholly spurious probability by the way, and should be interpreted as a statistical version of cabinet ministers crossing their fingers and toes).
This model is being developed by the newly created Department for Exiting the European Union, under David Davis, and it consists of a British reworking of Canada's EU free-trade deal, with - and this is the trickiest part - a bespoke add-on for our service sector.

The service sector addendum would be, for us, the dog not the tail – since services constitute a full 80% of all our economic output, and we would be rather closer to bust if our banks, lawyers and architects, inter alia, are more constrained in taking money from EU clients.

What are the core elements of this trade deal? Well the big thing the Brexit Dept is doing now is research into what parts of our current access to the EU are most valuable.

Its sensible initial presumption is that what matters most are the non-tariff barriers that can discriminate against non-members of the single market – or rules and regulations about how things are made, what kind of checks they undergo when they cross borders, how services are sold and who is allowed to sell what.
T
he famous passport for banks wanting to operate across the EU is one example, of vital importance to the City of London.
Now what on earth could go wrong with trying to turn us Canadian in our European connection?
Almost everything.

Apart from anything else, Canada’s own deal is not yet in effect – because it is bogged down in wrangling not on the terms of the deal, but on the procedure in the EU for formally approving it.

One huge challenge for Davis and his team therefore is to persuade Brussels and EU government leaders to allow any UK trade deal to be ratified by majority voting of government heads, and not the unanimous approval of EU national and regional parliaments.

If the deal requires that kind of parliamentary ratification, it can be kissed goodbye.

And finally, when on earth will there be a transition from this kind of fairly dry assessment of what we may reasonably be expected to win from our estranged EU partners, to a triggering of so-called Article 50 and the two year process of actually negotiating the departure.

Well the preparations will take months. There is, I reckon, only a modest prospect of the Article 50 two-year countdown being initiated by the end of the year, but a fair probability it’ll start by March.

If that deadline isn’t hit, then we may not give formal notice of departure till the closing days of 2017, because in the spring and summer EU government leaders will be distracted by important national elections, in France and Germany.

Or to put it another way, deciding to divorce from the EU was the relatively quick and easy bit. Actually working out what our new life will be, and then embarking on that life will take us years (and I haven’t even touched on the complexities of future security arrangements, the grandfathering of important EU law into British law, and the need for Liam Fox as international trade secretary to replicate the EU’s trade deals with the likes of South Africa, Singapore, Switzerland and South Korea, among a raft of other challenges).

RedToothBrush · 16/08/2016 18:16

I am reliably told that Brexit, for May (and therefore for us), equals:

  1. discretionary control over immigration policy;
  2. discretionary control over lawmaking;
  3. no compulsory contributions to the EU budget.

Since when was this clearly laid out as a manifesto by Leave. Oh wait. It wasn't.

Conclusion: May is a utter muppet. The government has no clue whatsoever. We are about to go back to the 1950s. We are FUKD.

Oh and young people didn't vote for it.

Serious civil unrest awaits when this all becomes apparent.

Most leave voters didn't want hard Brexit.

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Motheroffourdragons · 16/08/2016 18:26

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