Anyone thinking of leaving the UK following the referendum vote?

[crazyhead]

Just curious really. Me and my husband believe quite passionately in the EU project and it feels as though we don't want to sit here and watch the UK leave. I watched my Mum die last year and I just can't bear the slow motion grief of seeing this as well.

So we're thinking of leaving the UK for a while. DH has an interview on Friday for a US job for starters (we'd prefer EU but fewer relevant jobs - and we've not got the ancestry for EU passports sadly).

Anyone else thinking of leaving?

The closest primary school to me (in urban Glasgow) not the catchment one due to a kink in the catchment area has an intake that is 98% English as a Second/Additional language. Very few of them EU languages though . But as crossroads points out, guess what language they speak in the playground? The children, if they don't already, very quickly learn to speak English with Scottish accents.

I have no issue with any additional support they get. That's part of being an open, inclusive country and doing the best by all children. Indeed, ds' primary school ("only" 60% ethnic minorities/EAL) was an exemplar of good practice in EAL teaching and it enriched rather than detracted from ds' learning experience.

I have an MA in French and Economics and live in Scotland but don't really see what it had to do with the argument (after Trying put in her own education level and where she lives)

I suppose it does add to the argument if you add in the Scotland-wide vote which proves that we don't share the anti-EU vote of England. And we're well educated too

Careful now, loads of people pointing out that certain posts are full of xenophobic codswallop will be construed as "piling on" and "bullying" .

I find the xenophobia/hatred of 'metropolitans' terrifying. Line by line, it just sounds so similar to Germany in 1932. Why have we become a country why it is OK for the mainstream to say these things?

Re the US - I'm not thinking of going because it is some promised land, I just want a change from this and it is realistic in terms of work. I do think that the main thing about the US is that it is incredibly diverse - though it is hard to get away from Fox News!

We are no longer "we", we are now "them" and "us"

This racist, xenophobic baloney has been going on since anti-Semitism was invented.

Exactly the same argument was made about the Jews throughout history. They are 'other', they are 'different', it's 'them and us', 'they can never be assimilated'. Even in the 30s British writers were speaking of the Jews thus. Then came the Holocaust and everyone grew up. (Or some of us).

And again during Windrush and later the Commonwealth Immigrants Act which heralded the arrival of Carribeans, Africans, Indians and Pakistanis (forming a key contributing factor to the rebuilding of the post-war economy). The incomers were seen as other, savage, unassimilable. They were called Pkis and Nggers, smelly, dirty and told to 'go home'.
People posted shit and burning petrol through their letterboxes.

And yet... the areas that accepted immigrants have now assimilated 'them', and they're part of our multicultural life. Not saying there isn't racism but the fact is 'them' have become 'us'.

So Trying's hysteria over Eastern Europeans who are, after all, generally Caucasian, is mind-blowing in its ignorance and insularity.

Agreed Manon - except you forgot to list the Irish.

Oh yes of course, I forgot the Irish (embarrassing as I'm a quarter Irish). 'No dogs, no blacks, no Irish'.

It is exactly the sort of xenophobic and divisive rhetoric that Trying spouts that makes me want to leave the country. Now just because of where I ended up in the course of building my life during the Maggie era I am now widely vilified and resented as part of the "metropolitan elite". I have lots of friends who like me originated from working class backgrounds in the valleys, the north and across the UK and Ireland. Some also originate from immigrant communities that have been established across the country since the middle of the last century and before, from Ireland back in 1845 in my case, although still being referred to as Irish scum in the 70s.

We just did what Maggie's policies dictated, worked hard and got on our bikes to get an education, then emerging into that 70s recession after Empire wasn't working any more, ended up in the service industries in London because that was where the jobs were. In the course of my 39 year career I have happily paid higher taxes in the hope that governments would distribute it in the cause of greater equality, and voted accordingly. I have also as a marketing and sales person been able to look on proudly at the industry and jobs I helped create in towns like Peterborough, Bradford and Liverpool, some of it by helping businesses effectively market themselves in cultures beyond the EU. Even if people resent inequality you would think that expertise might be valued more than ever even by the likes of Trying but no.

I have also watched my home town, where I grew up happily alongside many other cultures and enriched by them descend into division as a result of opportunities drying up as it's industries withered. Yes I cheered Jo Cox as she spoke for the more in common that remained a unifying influence in those communities (I bet even trying has specific exceptions to her xenophobia such as that nice man in the corner shop who works so hard) and wept at her death at the hands of the ticket to hate that was given out with the leave campaign.

I am though now portrayed as part of a smug priviledged metropolitan elite blind to the rest of the country. We can't be a productive part of society any more, however much our actiuvities contribute to the economy, we are just stereotypes. And I have encountered the attitudes manifested by Trying in my friends and family, who suddenly have stopped seeing me as an individual but rather as one of
those smug Londoner remain voters who don't understand the world, (though the reasons I voted Remain were all to do with understanding the world and the place of the UK and Europe in it's political and economic networks as a result of living and working in it, something they had previously professed to admire.)

Frankly the years I spent living overseas surrounded by a strange culture and language were some of the happiest of my life. The people would have indeed been very grateful for all the democratic freedoms enjoyed in the UK but they are not derailed by a sense of entitlement into living miserable lives filled with the sort of self destructive resentment manifested by Trying. So kiss goodbye to financial services and.scientists (my daughter is one and definitely leaving) in the cause of xenophobia and then see what you can afford in the way of schools and hospitals when GDP has sunk by 40% and you are basically living in Greece.

whatwouldrondo - I totally agree about the unpleasantness and complete oddness of the 'metropolitan elite' term. Have any of the people using it actually been to a city?

My closest north London neighbours are the guy who used to run the local Chinese takeaway and his wife, a DJ and the local carpenter. Is our motley local crew this 'metropolitan elite'? Or do people imagine whole streets filled with identikit Ed Milibands say, or are we talking finance - say a row of Tyler Brulés?

Most of the foreign workers I encounter in the NHS are non EU. Yes, I'm afraid you WILL have to take my word for the fact that most of the people I are non EU. Quite what a "post factual democracy" has to do with people I encounter puzzles me. You are reading what you want to hear into what I say. Still that is your choice.
I did not say that I do not want the banks to have a passport or the universities to have research money. It's that other things are more important to me.
Zorion, you clearly know more than I do about Brits on the Costas. Or are you making assumptions by any chance?

I said the metropolitan elite may feel deprived. I did not say that all people who voted remain are part of the metropolitan elite. Why don't you read what I actually say instead of what you think I said

I am not "spouting" anything. I am giving my view, which I am entitled to do.
If you disagree, that's fine.
Many of you sound bitter.
For what it's worth I am not bitter, nor am I unhappy. One of my DCs lives in London and is part of what we both consider to be the "metropolitan elite". Both my DC and their OH voted leave for non financial reasons.
I only mentioned Urdu because someone asked me about Urdu and Bangladeshi.
I live in a very prosperous area where the young people have no difficulty staying and finding well paid work.
I am conscious, however, that people in many parts of this country are not as fortunate as I am. Many do feel ill at ease with the large number of immigrants. It is no good trying to deny the fact that immigration was an issue in this referendum. Of course it was.
And, frankly, I have no problem with people who seem incapable of reading what I write, but rather read into it what they want, leaving.

I was the one who asked about Urdu and Bangladeshi because you stated that you preferred to be surrounded by an English environment trying. I am one who is old enough to recall the no coloureds, no Irish notices. Much of the post Referendum hatred has been directed towards south-east Asians in particular so I have to assume that many people don't regard them as English/British, whatever their passport says. Would they be happy if their child was the sole English as a first language speaker in a class of Urdu speakers? I would suspect not.

I don't think you have answered my question about where our income will come from if we don't have the financial passporting and lose out on our scientific research. Not that you would be alone in not having any clear answers - the politicians at present seem equally lost.

Yes, we're off at the end of the month. Husband's job (and potentially 900 others in his london office) will go when Brexit actually takes place. We also think the education system here (England, much better in Scotland I think) is very poor and DC are at the point where if we don't move soon they'll be too far behind.

I have got friends who voted Leave as well as ones who voted Remain.
The Remainers are as worried sick as they expected to be, but were told they were peddling Project Fear. Why are they worried - they have children with EU spouses and wonder what their future will be in this country, or they work in scientific and medical research and again expect family members to have to move overseas to continue work. So there is the element of vested interest. Plus noting that the leaders of the Leave campaign fled from the scene within hours or days of winning, which does not inspire confidence. Noting too, that Theresa May has some completely contradictory expectations to manage and is in real danger of producing a compromise which satisfies no one.

The Leave voters - mostly thought long and hard before casting their votes and decided that Leave was the best option. Of those I have talked to, they seem gobsmacked that what they were told they were voting for was shown to be a pack of lies within hours of the results being declared and seem very very glum indeed.

Yes trying I expect I do know more than you. I know the area fairly well.

Immigration goes both ways.

Peregrina, not all the wealth in this country comes from financial services, although I accept a significant amount does. My SIL who is a partner at GS in London is delighted about Brexit. They expect to make a fortune advising companies about their Brexit strategies for the next 10 years. These guys will make money anyway and anywhere. I think we will probably keep,some form of passporting because it is in the EU's interest as well as ours.
I accept we may lose some EU money for research. We may compensate with funding from other parts of the world. We may not, who knows? In the short term the country may be poorer. Fine.

Whatwouldrondo, you mentioned Greece. Have you noticed it is in t he EU and cannot control its own financial systems, it's immigration, it's social services systems or any decisions about how the country operates. It is now being run by Brussels and Berlin.
Not really a good advertisement for the EU is it?

I am now leaving this thread.
Most of you do not want to engage in debate. You prefer to name call and denigrate others's ideas.
You refuse to accept that wanting to have a planned and managed immigration system along the lines of the Australian system is sensible and in the best interests of th e country. Apparently wanting this is racist. You are clearly happy with uncontrolled, unplanned immigration that does nothing to meet our skills shortages but does bring large numbers of unskilled workers and non workers here.
Fine. But Brexit will happen. I hope it happens soon.

Trying Yes you are spouting. You have no direct experience of living in a community affected by immigration so where does your xenophobia and associated rhetoric, and it is acquired rhetoric, come from? Where did you get that term "metropolitan elite"? Your example of the Nottingham school? The Torygraph? The Press and leave campaign both presented a distorted reality that you have clearly swallowed hook line and sinker.

I do have experience of growing up in an immigrant area. It was only an enriching one. Yes, declining industry and austerity has caused division and resentment that was not there before. That was exploited by the Press and Leave campaign with their tales of Doctor's surgeries in Lincolnshire and schools in Nottingham and posters of queues of dark skinned people. However the EU is not culpable for that, the government allowed the industies to decline and failed to pass on the benefits of immigration and the taxes they pay to support the few communities who did need additional resources to enable them to integrate. Even the most hardline Brexit is not going to change things much, the immigrants will stay, and a points system based on the countries economic needs will still be admitting hundreds of thousands of immigrants, it was admitting just as many non EU immigrants as those from the EU with the current draconian system. The government remains the same, fostering the inequality that allows your community to thrive whilst others struggle.

The Australian points system applies to a tiny minority of immigrants to Australia. The vast majority, over 300000, enter the country on other types of visa. Australia took 30000 refugees last year to the UKs 3000 and then invests in settling them into their new communities. I was at a local festival in an industrial town in Australia a few months ago that was celebrating all the cultures of the people living there funded by the local council, Somalians, Eritreans, Syrians, as well as indigenous culture all bought together to value what sets them apart and celebrate what they have in common. Even my misoynist host expressed pride.

I mentioned Greece as an example of the size of economy that a post hard Brexit UK would have, one that could not afford all the infrastructure our society enjoys today. Not that that would bother the Tory right who would welcome the shrinking of the state.

Most of you do not want to engage in debate. You prefer to name call and denigrate others's ideas.

Here we go again. Name calling, denigrating others, "driven" away from the forum .

It's funny not how reasoned arguments and real life experiences (rather than second hand anecdotes) "drive people away".

Some people don't like their prejudices (in the true/original sense of the word) being challenged

In the short term the country may be poorer. Fine

Really? It's fine to push the lowest socio-economic groups, already hard hit by austerity, further into poverty? To strip deprived areas of much needed EU funding?

All for the sake of restricting a few EU migrants.

Very nice to know that trying's SIL will make a packet out of Brexit. We can't all be employed as top quality lawyers can we?

My own children in scientific and medical research will almost certainly move abroad. A good experience for them, but a loss to this country. However, poverty is fine.